LaTale's Controlled Market

AugustineVii · June 2017

If LaTale had a controlled market, it would make it easier for newcomers to be able to jump into the marketplace and not scare them away with the prices merchants and players provide. I, personally - as well as a few select others I spoke with - support the idea of a controlled market in LaTale. This market I'm speaking of only consists of items bought through the Fashion Shop. All items that are purchased with real currency should be branded with set values (fashion, pets, darts, functional items, etc.). By doing this, items will have less of a chance to inflate as the values of these items' worth is posted on them. The trading system would have two versions following this: trade and set trade. The regular trade option can be used for regular everyday tasks such as giving mats to a friend, gifting (such as ely or potions), and trading locked or regular armor. Items from the Fashion Shop could no longer be placed into the regular trade window and would have to be traded through the set trade window where a “weight system” would be implemented. Let's say, for example, you have a Reaper set that's valued at 130m ely. When you place it into the window, the value of that set would show up at the bottom on the side of the player selling it. The other person would have to equal that value or any value less than that, if the person selling is willing to sell the set for less or free entirely. Allowing free trades would still allow people to give items like locks to friends that can be used to lock armor for them. However, in this set trade window, the seller can not ask for more unless the receiving person is willing to give more and they would have to do a secondary trade outside of the set trade window. I would highly discourage buying anything more than set value, however. This system, although a bit complex, can keep the economy from inflating – in regards to Fashion Shop items, anyway – to unrealistic and unnecessary amounts of ely for certain items. The values of these items would have to be converted to match the ely-to-cash ratio, which would be set by the GM's from the start. Player input should be taken into account as well, which would keep the payout for items more permanent and, in turn, keeping more people happy. [DISCLAIMER] THIS IS ONLY A CONCEPT. NONE OF THIS IS LIKELY TO BE IMPLEMENTED. THIS POST IS JUST FOR GENERAL POPULATION TO EXPRESS HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THIS IDEA, PLEASE SHOW RESPECT TO ALL OPINIONS. Thank you!

HenryMorrison · June 2017

I would love to see a system like that implemented, the prices were ridicoulous on the last server...
"Here, have 1b ely I made grinding for 3 hours of my existance".

I am not really sure how much power they have to modify the game but it would be nice to have a little more control over the price of items, it wouldn't be necessary if people cooperated with everybody else.

Chymes · June 2017

Tldr; That is actually what makes a game like Black Desert work, one of the few things i appreciate about that game other than the graphics. With a few adjustments It would work in a game like this.... especially if they put more emphasis and reward into crafting.

******It totally eliminated gold spammers for that game in particular. Having a controlled market (where even fashion shop item prices are controlled when players want to sell them) allows people to consistently have stable forms of income as long is there is a demand for whatever they sell. Once again, my biggest hope going into this is that they will take a look at how successful games function and try to improve LaTale based on that, and player feedback/ transparency.

FIND OUT WHAT MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO KEEP PLAYING OTHER GAMES ..... there is a reason those games are so popular, and part of that is transparency.

Sidenote= =Player run markets tend to favor pay to win systems, however slightly controlled markets not only allow for equality for everyone, but often times benefit the sustained profit that the game makes overall.=

Edit: Looks like i finally figured out how to quote someone O.O

Rubatin · June 2017

I'm all for the system, but why should it only extend to cash items? For the most part cash shop items already have set rates like 2 million ely per astro. Players who try to get away with selling overpriced cash items will most likely fail already, considering how little money the player base will have after launch. I like the system, I've seen it on Black Desert, but I can only see this system helping for the pets that we never had in the cash shop that were rising over a billion.

AugustineVii · June 2017

What? @rubatin. You do realize that astros to ely ratios wont be translated to papaya right?. This should apply for all cash shop items, make it fair across the board. Not just where it would convenience a small group of people.

Rubatin · June 2017

I understand that a new rate of ely to new currency will be set in place relatively soon on the Papaya server, which is why I think cash items for the most part will be somewhat controlled in price even without the system. Again, I like the system and think it should apply to cash items, but why would gear and consumables be excluded from the system?

Aegelweard · June 2017

@AugustineVii

Basically, we are moving from free-trade market into socialistic planned economy? At least it sounds like that.

In my opinion, what caused insane inflation on OGP server was artificial shortage of supplies. More so, everything on OGP server came from gamble boxes and LaDeck, which is also a gambling system. Everything was based on luck and as such involved huge risk of wasting lots of resources. This is why people, who had access to Infinite chests and darts would always set high prices to cover their expenses and risks. Once we have a Fashion Shop that is bursting with all kinds of fashions, pets, syrup packages and etc there will be very little room to viciously inflate prices on necessities.

The average amount of ely people are able to make a day must also be taken into consideration. You realistically cannot sell Reaper set for 130m if your average Joe makes 400m a day running Roads/Odin/Ymir/Degos/HC/Bong.

Fixed market prices will only work when coupled with capped player's income.

AugustineVii · June 2017

@rubatin because too many variables would go into armor such as durability, enchants, and how good the enchants turn out. There would just be too many small things to get behind. So fashion shop only items would be the best route since they cost actual money. As for consumables. It wouldn't affect them either because they are not in the fashion shop.

@aegelweard Socialist? If you want to look at it like that.. Sure? haha, and we all know why Ogplanet had issues. But this has nothing to really do with that. Also, someones daily income has nothing to do with the system as well. If you make more ely, the system is still controlled so I'm not really sure what you're getting at by mentioning someones daily draw in when it comes to ely.

Cyrilic · June 2017

Well, i think they mean that as people become able to maximize their ely farming. If the controlled prices are too low for what they'd be happy selling it for, odds are they won't bother selling it at all.

If the prices are a little bit lower than the worth they'd like to charge, they'll probably still sell it, just a bit more reluctantly.

If the prices are noticably lower, the amount that people are willing to sell i going to be lower too. People low but desperate for Ely are still going to sell. However, those doing well enough and bigger spenders are going to second guess giving away their supply they could just burn on their own chars for min-maxing.

If the prices are too low... then the biggest spenders are more likely to just think its better to just hoard the items they get from gamble boxes. Or give them to close friends/guild members to make them stronger, so that it still indirectly benefits them more than the lower amount of ely they get for selling it.

That generosity is good in a way, BUT it stops those items from reaching the open market at the prices you'd want.

If the market cap price is too low then you'll still see some being sold in market, but the supply will be too low for the demand. Most players base what "too low" is compared to how much ely they can farm in a day. Thats what @Aegelward means. If people make less ely via farming, the lower caps set by the system become more acceptable to them.

I don't know much about BDO, but i know they have a different economy (iirc nodes and crafting are the heart of it, whereas LT is raw ely farming), and checking some forum threads right now, they are suffering from the exact supply issues I theorized just now on certain high-demand items... as in no one wants to sell it.

AugustineVii · June 2017

BDO is more independent, the market is controlled but players usually rely on themselves I've noticed. Black desert is the only game i have played so far where i have not become incredibly rich quickly simply because of how that game is structured. Yes, you can spend forever ely farming and what you said is pretty much what this system would promote. Keeping it pretty fair and even. I KNOW people would want more because we've all been there. Its just how people are. And i know this system would crack at people who are just in it for themselves. I'm sure if this was implemented from the get go, it wouldn't be much of an issue for most players. But there are always those who it would bother. Rich or poor. But with all respect i get exactly what you guys are saying. @Cyrilic (if some of this doesn't make sense, please forgive me. I am pretty exhausted and took forever to write this reply because,well words. LOL)

Aegelweard · June 2017

@Cyrilic

You nailed it perfectly as if you were reading my mind. This is exactly what I meant.

Chymes · June 2017

@Cryilic @Aegelweard Generally in a controlled market the prices still have fluctuation based on the demand of the item. If the item is in high demand the prices lower, if the item is scares or rare the prices become higher.

Ideally every item would have a base price, but as the game goes on the price would change based on supply and demand.

I don't think its possible that prices would be "too low" since the set prices on EVERYTHING would determine the economy of the entire game.

If all fashion sets sell for 100 mil there would be nobody worried that they can't sell theirs for 300mil + because 100 mil would be the determined value for ALL sets, the more people sell the cheaper the item would get. This would prevent people from hoarding things from events that players sell, because the prices they could sell for later would also be determined, and would not QUADRUPLE just because its months after said event. It would also stop monopolies on certain items because the base value would already be determined.

If people still choose to hoard, we would all know they are just being greedy and could stop buying from them.

That was one of the biggest issues in OGP LaTale in my opinion. Having a system that not only deprives the community of items, but then further allows greedy rich wale players to control the economy is what drives many new people away. They generally had no hope of getting anywhere or anything even if it was something as simple as a Toma Coupon because you would have people selling them for ridiculous prices.

Generating more supply will not stop this issue, it might lessen it. I also hope they stop the "top three players get x" events because this encourages the same behavior. Instead when having leveling events ect.... just set tiered rewards that everybody can achieve that way the "rich players get richer" mentality will not remain in this new version of LaTale.

I could understand having a top 3 players in say a community art contest or a guide contest or a cosplay contest ect... How fast you leveled ended up being determined by what rich player that had a ton of money to drop on a new char----rather than encouraging people to level up and try out a new class for equal reward--- especially newer players know they would not be able to win any of the tip prices in the old "x people get" system....

As far as item trading just set no minimum value for the items being traded, but set a cumulative maximum value based on the items being traded that way people don't just try to sell for more in person to person trade.

As far as BDO goes the items that are high demand are not there simply because some person decided to hoard a bunch and sell them later, they are there because the monsters rarity to drop them is so high. However in LaTale the monsters have reasonable drop rates, so that is not an issue.

Essentially BDO suffers only from not having enough Supply --This is also only an issue with Armor + Accessories + Weapons-- The main difference is that you can still do most things (grinding + farming) with all gear as long as it is at a high enough upgrade. Where in LaTale that is not always the case for high level dungeons.

Our LaTale community has proven that they can't handle a non-controlled market without generating ton of greedy people selling items, and that is one of the reason so many people left.

I also agree that in a controlled economy things like crafting need to be more important and from what I know LaTale has always failed to make crafting seem like a viable thing to do-- so yes, they should give people an incentive to want to craft items rather than only farming for them. Maybe give crafting a chance to drop Enchantment coupons, monster codex cards, and/or something else? Maybe even having some of the materials you used have a chance to come back after your crafting level gets higher might be a good idea.

As far as I was aware ELY farming is getting a nerf in the next patch we are on--- though I may be wrong and it might just be the explorer tree that is getting ely gain nerfed.

FantasyHeart · June 2017

Any beginning Economics course should tell you that artificially controlling prices is bad.

You must let the market control the price; Supply and Demand.

If a price is too high for you then have some patience and wait until you can afford it.

I vote "no" on artificial price controls....

AugustineVii · June 2017

Not every new player is going to have the in and outs of the game down. The system is to keep the market from inflating at all and to make pricing fair for everyone. Rich or poor. Personally this system wouldn't benefit me at all. But it's much bigger than myself. The system would work in my opinion. But I suspect the biggest reason people would be against it would be greed. (Not calling anyone here greedy) But that's just what seems would be the main issue.

Chymes · June 2017

@FantasyHeart

Given that the point of a game is to have fun, or what would be considered fun by the majority of people, I have a few issues with your statement.

The issue with your statement is exactly that -- LaTale Never had enough supply, and when we did, people would hoard then overprice.

Obviously for some reason that basic economics class does not apply to LaTale in full or else the economy would not have ended up the way it did. In LaTale the "market" controlling the price resulted in having detrimental effects on the entire game . Whales and Greedy people were, in large part, contributing to the game ending.

If the few players spending money on the game and controlling it drove away enough players that the game could not sustain itself, then the same issue is bound to occur if they allow the same thing to happen in this game.

One thing you may not be taking into account is that the game is ultimately governed by a single entity with its only other interactions being

-- A.} Other competition B.}Actoz and C.} The Players

In a real government this is not the case, and there are many more factors that lead to a free market being successful, however because of that you cant fully apply real world economics to a game like this that has many limiting factors.

Having a controlled market in-game would prevent the inflation of items. If you are telling me its okay for an item to Quadruple in price due to lack of supply in large part because people are hoarding and hardly anybody can afford said item that is necessary to progress, in a game that is supposed to be FUN, then I think you need to take a class on the purpose of a game, and reference SUCCESSFUL game markets.

FantasyHeart · June 2017

@Chymes

I couldn't disagree more.

Not everyone views "fun" in the same way. To some people it is "fun" to merchant.

"Whales and greedy people were, in large part, contributing to the game ending" Wrong again!

As someone who has actively played this game for over seven years I can expertly attest to the fact that "whales" are the MAIN reason this game lasted years longer than it otherwise would have!

If you truly want LT to last a long time at PP then you should be encouraging people to spend some money. Not handcuff, hinder, and make fun of the people that do.

At the end of the day, LT will need to make money for PP to continue to want to host it. It is a business, after all.

Indeed you should be grateful to the "whales". They make it possible for the people who can't, or won't spend real money to continue to play the game.

If LT runs smoothly on PP then I do plan on being extremely active and spending some money. I understand that many people can't afford to do that, and that is fine. But don't disregard the fact that my purchases help to make up for the next 100 people that don't spend anything. And although my purchasing will by and large be for personal use, it is not up to you to tell the people that spent real money in this game what price they can charge for anything they choose to sell.

Chymes · June 2017

@FantasyHeart

I think you missed my point.

With a controlled economy people would still be able to merchant so nobody would be hindering them from having fun in the way that they wish. They would however be hindered from inflating prices on items. The prices would still fluctuate based on supply and demand, just not to the point that they were people are able to intentionally hoard an item then throw whatever price tag they want on it and call it good.

I'm not discrediting the whales and greedy people who kept the game alive.....though you must consider the fact that the game is NO LONGER "alive"......so the system currently in place obviously did not work.

What I am saying however is that if them hoarding and flipping items prevented people from wanting to play the game, in the end, what they were doing was a lost cause that needs to be fixed.

Having a controlled market will not result in a loss of money if a MAJORITY of the people that play have fun. Not just the whales and merchants. If one persons fun causes a large amount of people to leave, paired with the company not doing anything about it, the fate of LaTale will remain the same.

I am grateful to the "greedy whales and merchants" for participating in ending the game so we can start fresh, without stigma, and possibly work for a better community and better gameplay experience for EVERYONE. Not just a few people keeping the game alive..... or rather i should say aiding in the demise of a game..... since OGP LaTale is ending as it is.....

Nothing is stopping you or anybody else from spending money if the market is controlled --especially not me. However more players = higher chance of people spending. The whales will continue to spend, and assuming you will too, the only thing that will happen is an increase in profit because more people will want to play and do so because they enjoy the game.

However, the flipping of items will not be allowed to be abused to the extent that people will not find the game fun anymore and leave..

No, its not up to me to tell the people that spent real money in this game what price they can charge, however it is up to the publisher (just by them having a spending limit this is true). I can assume that the people spending money would like to continue to play the game for a long time and to do that we need more people to play, more consistently, and actually want to stay playing. I would also assume this publisher would not like this game to continue to be a lost cause.

If the "free market" prevented or plays a major negative role in that then the game might as well just stay dead, because eventually that is what will happen if nothing changes.

TLDR;

-Increase the supply so people don't always have to rely on players who overprice

-Limit how much a player can inflate an item for but still allow a rare item to be worth its value

-Create a stable market where a MAJORITY of types players can thrive not just a select few (this means people that spend A TON, people that spend A LITTLE, people that don't spend at all, people that hoard and want to flip, people who want to merch, people who want to grind for ely, and people who want to craft.)

AugustineVii · June 2017

" I can expertly attest to the fact that "whales" are the MAIN reason this game lasted years longer than it otherwise would have!" I'm sure more than just.. whales? spent money on this game.. You might be against the idea of a controlled economy. But to say it wouldn't work. Just is not true. It's worked plenty of times before, and the only thing that would hinder it on this game is because of old mindsets and overall just player greed. A controlled system isn't handcuffing anybody. It's simply limiting how much items are and should be valued at so everyone has a clear idea of what they should spend on them. You can still spend all you want on the game. It wouldn't affect you at all unless you want to have people pay more for items that they really shouldn't have to. This is a pretty circular argument. With or without the system. The game would survive. But to say it wouldn't work just is not true.

Moonternity · June 2017

"greedy people did nothing wrong!"

I..............

Cyrilic · June 2017

Lets not divide our community up just to make a point. If anything hurt our population, it was that divisiveness more than anything.

@fantasyheart

I strongly disagree with claiming f2p players owe whales anything. As well as vice versa

Fact is free players are every bit as important to the sales model as the heavy spenders.

They provide free advertisement that draws in potential heavy spenders, could become heavy spenders and provide content to the game in the form of free market customers, people to party with and provide life to the game.

They owe whales nothing because they do their job in making sure whales stick around.

I know for sure at least 3 heavy spenders quit because me and their other close f2p friends got bored and pulled them into the next game.

@chymes

Whales and merchants didnt kill the game. OGP did by failing to accomodate their f2p playerbase.

Ideally supply of core items should be plentiful enough so that merchants CAN'T successfully control the market. However, more expensive boxes, insufficient amount of compelling non spending events and restrictive rates on very important items drove away players. Lack of population caused more people to leave.

Leaving only the most determined players to control the smaller, weakened economy.

Its not really the players responsibility to govern the game. It was OGP's. They should keep the game playable regardless of what heavy economic players do.

@augustinevii

I personally am not saying it cant work. I just know it would definitely affect supply negatively and influences cash spending decisions.

But if adjustments by management are done to compensate for it then everything else in the game and the players would adjust accordingly.

I do enjoy the thread though. Throwing ideas around is good just to keep players aware and thinking consiously.

Chymes · June 2017

@Cyrillic

Agreed.

Its not really the players responsibility to govern the game. It was OGP's. They should keep the game playable regardless of what heavy economic players do.

--

Ideally supply of core items should be plentiful enough so that merchants CAN'T successfully control the market.

Even in the case of rare items i think there needs to be some type of limiting factor.

As such I think that a controlled market would do just that.

Also Ill highlight these points since they are kind of hidden under my blocks of text, but are as a whole what I am getting at.

-Increase the supply so people don't always have to rely on players who overprice

-Limit how much a player can inflate an item for but still allow a rare item to be worth its value

-Create a stable market where a MAJORITY of types players can thrive not just a select few (this means people that spend A TON, people that spend A LITTLE, people that don't spend at all, people that hoard and want to flip, people who want to merch, people who want to grind for ely, and people who want to craft.)

I'm all for the inclusion of all players, however I do think that the mind-state of many whales/merchants aided in some of the main reasons that people left the game.

Rubatin · June 2017

Sad that a player who spends real money to get ahead can be so greedy that they dislike the idea of a controlled market.

The player base is just as important as the spenders in the community. If all the game was reduced to was a bunch of spenders and whales then the only thing you will be doing is making forum posts complaining why nobody is ever in game or doing dungeons.

AugustineVii · June 2017

@cyrilic I enjoy the discussion too. It's pretty nice to see what everyone has to say. Thank you for contributing to the thread :)

FantasyHeart · June 2017

@Cyrilic

I agree that we don't want the divisiveness. So, I thank you for saying that. Sometimes people come across differently than they mean to when they are passionate about a topic. :)

As an American Capitalist with an Economics background I am just -really- against artificial price controls.

Thankfully I don't THINK that is likely to happen here.

AugustineVii · June 2017

It wont happen, its just a concept. And you shouldn't shy away from it even if it is "socialism" basically. End of the day in this sort of setting. It would work.

Chymes · June 2017

In general I do wonder what they aim at changing, if anything. I just hope more people come to play and stay c:

AugustineVii · June 2017

As do i. It would be nice to see new people who stick around. I'm pretty excited to help out new players.

Covalence · June 2017

Didn't OGP do something like this with super puzzles? At some point during S2, they added super puzzles to npc shops for around 3.5m and later dropped them to 2.5m. Having them in the shop was helpful for when I couldn't find any in the market but it also essentially set a maximum price for super puzzles. Why would I buy super puzzles from a player for 4m when I can get it from an npc for 2.5? Do I have the right idea of what you're saying?

Covalence · June 2017

Didn't OGP do something like this with super puzzles? At some point in S2, they added super puzzles to npc shops for like 3.5m (2.5m later on). This made them somewhat easier to obtain in case they weren't on the market at the time but it essentially also set a maximum price of sorts. I mean, why would I buy super puzzles from a player for 3m when I can buy it from an npc for 2.5? Is that the general idea of what this is or am I missing something?

sojosoto · June 2017

the economy is already fixed due to everyone starting over. Now it is up to the vets/new gen players to figure out the rest. Players will come to realize over the days/weeks/months of playing PapayaLT what items are good to buy/sell, you also have to take into account the progression the server is making towards end game.

P.S An Ely cap for the first 90 days of relaunch wouldn't be to bad.

ferociouspets · June 2017

@Covalence, that's one way to do it. Having a NPC sell essential supplies at a fixed price with an infinite supply. Or, they can even make it so that the supplies can only be claimed a limited times per day, and blocking trade around these items so they wouldn't exert much of an impact on the economy. Then again, it would be quite improbable for this to happen due to these supplies being nearly exclusive to spenders; it would discourage less players to buy as much gamble boxes, so on.

LaTale's Controlled Market

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