Special Economy tutoring:Latale Edition- Topic Item Drop Rate

mamario00mamario00 Posts: 81Member Beginner
So many people are talking about item drop rate and that we need it or whatever, so I will be discussing this issue moreover on here. We are going to go as much as in depth with item drop rate as much as we can, before we start losing focus so here we go.

As I have heard and seen, IDR is an important part of la tale, especially transferring over as we have to work on our gears and get stronger, as of now we have to teamwork in order to do things, so we have to be careful of both sharing said item, and not having duplicate classes on the same team. People also need the IDR to do their legendary quests and other things (sometimes to unlock the grind areas like ymir.) On OGP, when they "removed" ely, people where whining (and still are) about how it got harder to make money and things were going to get overpriced and etc., but then they got used to it and we went from 80m primes to 35m primes, while still earning more money than what we have been complaining about.

 On this new transfer though, CURRENTLY, IDR is taken away and ely is taken away, which means you can't make money, or that's how it goes, even collecting things is harder and codexing is such a pain. On OGP, we had too much IDR, too much money, and a stagnation of certain stuff, so I am going to tackle this from a neutral position, mostly because I am neutral, what is papaya doing right, and what it is doing wrong.

Now I am going to use some terms, that in economy may mean a different thing, but bare with me, it will be much easier to understand with MY terms, rather than those of economics. so lets start this baby out

Pros.

So lets begin as much as we can, first off there is the term of inflation, and this is something hard to tackle, especially in a game as I was saying before. See inflation is like your crazy ex wife, no matter what you do, it will appear. 

The pros of having too much IDR, is that now we can earn more money, and with that much money, we start becoming Venezuela, this is we keep the current fashion shop as is and not listen to the community about the cash shop or whatever. One prime exp is already at 20 million, and that's because we have figured out that currently you can earn about 12m a day, this is rounded off really well, you can earn more or you can earn less, but that's how I'm putting it for now, a casual player earnings. When we get IDR at 500% though, or 300%, that money can be tripled, or doubled, especially if you play your cards right, but now what? now you got more money, the merchants know you got more money, and the items are relatively the same in the market shop. Now you might be thinking "wait doesn't this sound negative, a prime could reach 60m at this rate right?" and I will answer with that "yes indeed" but now with that much IDR you wont really need to buy primes unless you really want to level. See IDR wont help you level in terms of leveling faster, that's EXP, please don't get the terms confused, IDR will help you GET STRONGER, which in terms help you kill things faster, because once people have more than one item, they like to enchant gamble.
      So, once you get stronger, you can tackle more dungeons, and you can even sell leeches, with this you have a stable COMMUNITY, but not a stable MARKET, IDR affects community, not the market. The market is affected by the community and the goods, let me give it to you in a situation you can understand, because youre probably thinking "Oh, he is so wrong -types angrily-." Do you know how much a ymir piece cost, about 1 million~3 million ely. if IDR increases, and people can solo ymir, then no ones actually gonna buy, well they will, in OGP with 500% IDR, ymir costed 5m~7.5m, do you see where this is headed, only players choices affect the market. See this goes back to how IDR is important but its technically not, as its like a mitigation factor, something that is needed, but necessarily unneeded, which we will now go to the cons section, as idr doesn't really have that much positivity.

Cons

 The cons of having too much IDR is that we get an influx of cash into the system now, since we have a way of earning money, but with too much cash comes too much responsibility. Lets put it like this, in a normal Latale experience, you need to enhance gears, buy enhance boosters, upgrade said item, be prepared to fail, buy the IDR potions, buy grape cans, have spares, run the dungeon, and many more things. In the end, you need an item that can freeze time so you can do all these things in a single day. Not to mention that IDR and ELY, are in my opinion, putting yourself on the slave market, you only earn enough to live for that day, and then you have to repeat everything again, which ruins the fun of the game and the whole point of it, as even with +500% IDR, people get greedy and want to solo, sad but true.

I am not against too much IDR, as I said because I am neutral, but this is just the cold hard truth,  at a certain point in time, people didn't even want to level up anymore and resorted to the IDR and ELY making business, and was mainly stuck on level 200 or something just making money and losing said money. With too much IDR, you will have an endless cycle of things, not to mention that the market is only limited to like 6 stuff that people want, and not enough supply, so right now the current LTC change rate is around 100k for each LTC, if IDR gets puts in and we make more money, the LTC change rate is changed to 1.5m for each LTC, this is the main issue IDR tackles, and it tackles it hard. Like I said before, you can "fix" one part of the inflation system, but in doing so you will be creating 50 different inflations along the way. 


In conclusion:

Although I would like to go more in depth, on the pros and con,  because there is like at least 5 different pros, and 10 different cons or something, you have to understand that there is only two words you need to know now. Trickle-down effect and the Funnel effect.

Trickle down effect in my term is what currently is happening on papaya, everythings at 0, and the things you need, you need to pour some cash into it, so only the merchants have a say in everything, the community has no way of fighting back at it, their arguments are being blown away by the wind. In this effect, since everythings restarted at 0, and we came from a place where everything was at.... well not 0 obviously, we think that something is important because we never WORKED HARD for it, but we also understand that some things are needed in order to start over, better flow of items, but IDR itself shouldn't be included, just a steady flow of necessity needs.

The other is the Funnel effect in my terms, in this condition, its like we put a funnel in our mouth, the little stick hole part, and the wider part is the weird stuff they are pouring into your mouth. What you do in this sense, is that our avatars are the ones being chugged down, we want it to be strong to continue,  but the things that need to be chugged are the things that we need to be strong, but the only thing we are getting is nonsense, something that we don't need. The funnel effect in my terms, is a system where we get all our neccesities in a single pour, we benefit from this, and in terms benefit the community. 

If everyone actually started on the same foot we wouldn't have had this issue, but sadly some people started the race without the rest of us. 
Cyrilic

Comments

  • CyrilicCyrilic Posts: 109Member Trainee
    edited July 2017
    I'd like to play a bit of devil's advocate in favor of the lack of IDR.

    Remember how in OGP there existed the issue of early game players not having a way to make money? For example, all the equipment we'd skip because class cloak was EZ to get?

    Well, now. Lot of stuff that had absolutely no value, or less value is becoming more relevant in the economy. There was one factor in LT's original design that IDR in OGP completely ruined. Rarity scaling.

    In OGP we'd gun for class cloak or whatever came to be highest tier, the only bar being can we handle the dungeon. End all be all. However now, there's a different factor we have to concern ourselves with now. 

    How long is it gonna take me to work on this upgrade, and is there an easier alternative i can go for in the meantime?

    This was meant to be the counter balance to power creep; yes the new stuff is shinier and stronger but its harder to find. You still need to work on older stuff thats easier to find while trying to upgrade the stronger stuff.

    At this point you're probably asking "Isn't this a DOWNGRADE, this is still a harder game that makes everything slower overall. wtf."

    Yes. its true, it does, and its a drag on our prior OGP progression speed. We loved it, we loved being on top of the newest boss.... however, don't you also remember the constant complaints about how newer players had no way to make money? How we'd scoff at new content that... wasn't as strong as what was already endgame? Now we start considering how that -not so strong- stuff is easier to get. That its a good stepping stone to hold us over until the rarer stuff finally drops and upgrades to a tolerable point.

    Well, now, suddenly I'm seeing a demand for equipment we eventually stopped caring about or saw as junk in OGP. There's a bigger market for shards, and for crafting in general because those equips are actually necessary placeholders until the equipment we do want gets upgraded to a tolerable level.

    New ways to make money and sell to other players when previously ONLY astro items could sell for any reasonable value. There's now more reason to buy resources previously ignored.

    This means the shards that even new players can sell carry more value in the market. As well as other lower tier drops. While this was viable in the past, it didn't make as much money for newer player back then either, as veteran access to idr meant they were better off simply running and farming themselves, but now that enough to get everything simply does not drop, people looking to rush for progression will HAVE to buy from market to get things done quicker.

    This is how reduced IDR can actually increase demand in prices for the items that lower tier players have access to and can sell. Vets need resources, new players need ely, Reduced idr enforces the need to trade with others to get things done.

    "What about our cash item problem, we can't get the cash items we need at reasonable prices?"

    Alright, so we've established that IDR = more ely, more ely = inflation of prices in general. The next problem in OGP that we had is this: Why would anyone sell their cash items when they can farm ely so easily?

    Well friend, when you can't make enough ely for these later game ely sinks on your own, you start demanding ely wherever you can get it. Suddenly the massive amount of drops to NPC is gone cause IDR isn't a thing. You get a high dura Odin Weapon thats not for your class... no one you know needs it.  Maybe, you can get better money for using an item seal on it and selling it on the market.

    Maybe that's not enough, those upgrade bills keep coming non-stop. So you decide you want enough ely to handle all the upgrades, its time, you have a lot of IRL money and no time to waste. You pull out your credit card and buy LTC solely for the reason of raising Ely for progression. 

    Its happened, for once a spender is opting to sell LTC for more ely. The transaction is more beneficial for him than it was in OGP because he's not flooded to the brim with ely from farming. 

    He needs you, the common, farming player, to help him progress. And you need his LTC. This transaction is mutual and necessary for both parties to get ahead,  rather than as obscenely one-sided as it was in OGP... Because the amount of ely he can farm alone isn't enough. That, friend, is how you increase supply of much needed LTC items in the market.


    There's a lot of other dynamics that were ignored in the past that IDR actually was harming, just we were so entrenched and so much damage was done already that we couldn't see it, nor care.  However i hope that you guys consider everything put forth by this post, observe the differences in the game as time goes on, and hopefully see things from a new point of view. Lets do our best to adapt, and see how papaya handles this.
  • cyroricyrori Posts: 9Member Beginner
    edited July 2017
    That's just the problem though- The difference between earlygame - midgame and endgame is so different that it is a bit hard to really hit the nail on the head. Inflation from too much idr is definitely an issue, but OGP had that problem because there wasn't enough tradable items from low level players to high level players from free events, and OGP already really wanted only 0.5% of players to reach endgame because it literally funneled all the resources, since there was an exclusivity agenda ogp really liked that killed the game. Right now for most of early game, you don't even need any significant gear to buy, since you can get it all from achievements and quests, and it is sufficient enough to get you to 202 right now ( without even using a single extra prime; though, there are some class advantages )

    Going step by step through gear, especially when you start to hit 200, because ridiculously slow and almost a waste of time and ely, due to the fact you know there is something better right around the corner, and that work is easily replaced. While some players can enjoy that, it is possible to compensate for players of all levels to play at any pace by just supplying them with the fundamentals. IDR this case ( since I've already iterated on exp ), is fine being not too high, but being low is extremely painful. Players don't have the resources and time to make an idr set, ( fisherman acc) or gain idr from every corner, so we definitely do need an initial boost. However, it is true that even 200% idr makes a big enough difference around the 200 level.

    The problem comes though when you don't have enough players at endgame trading endgame resources around since every time an update comes out, the hurdle becomes higher and higher. 2 full lab runs for upgrading elrian gear in a duo; 4 runs of sacred hall, would equal maybe 1-2 upgrades of the new accessories (which can all go to +6 btw), and palace armor requires many runs to get a decent set, strong enough to handle elrian; let alone sacred hall. KLT can handle it because they allow starting players and mid level players packages and resources to get to endgame, if they so desire, as well as free tradable resources desirable by end gamers to fund the low - mid gamers.

    Which is why early game ( 1-205 ) and mid game ( 1-220 ) should be easy to hit, and resources that allow players to get stronger ( free / alternate ways to get +15 mutant, the level req was dropped to 200, as the new accs replace them, free puzzles since players cannot really afford supers to get stronger / clear instances faster since, a free, open source of exp ( free B rated pots, and A, while A primarily sources from LTC) that stands to ensure that all the ely and resources doesn't funnel towards the cash shop players, odin weapons, crit rate potions, and other obsolete gear like dragon taid badge materials, dyn lightning badge material, mutant spectre material, elrian upgrade material, rivera, and even latest content like devil mountain material )

    KLT does all of that, which gives players more options and ways to do things without having to spend-- spending just gets you that edge in new items and power, while not being a core resource that limits the majority of the playerbase. There are enough things that can and probably will be tradable in cash shop to create enough money from LTC, as long as Papaya strives to be as inviting and open as possible to allow new players to get settled in as quickly and comfortably as possible. This model of more open to all players is much much better than relying on whales to supply the economy, and probably the main reason why KLT still remains well sustained to this day. Growing the playerbase is much better than trying to milk out of what we have, risking the loss of this amazing start. I'd say that free resources really ensures that IDR, despite not being a power player like in OGP, makes sure that everyone can play comfortably without needing too much of it, as really, getting more players to farm the same instances that end gamers are on, will allow for a much better time, and have more people on the same level, being strong.

    That is why I'd say that really, IDR really affects things at different levels of the game-- but definitely can hurt the economy. KLT circumvents their problem of low IDR because they have much more players at endgame, thus allowing more people to trade elrian weps, sacred hall accessories, and so on. The endgamers who are higher up will buy them and the lower endgamers who sell them as fodder or a lucky enchant can get more money to catch up. Preventing players from reaching endgamer prevents a more diverse economy, and really, it just frustrates a lot more people that they won't ever be on the same level as those endgamers. We want everyone to do as they like without having to be strapped or relying too hard on any one resource, or else people will lose motivation and quit much more easily than you'd think.
    wujekkromekAnnaGraem22
  • DevillAngellDevillAngell Posts: 53Member Beginner
    Here is the problem.. on ogp i could make 600m+ a day from farming and stuff cost 2bil tops... now i see 2-4bil when i can get 200m a day.... kinda... bad
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