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Weapon Balance part 1 Feedback & Explaining about Weapon Balancing
Killingtime
Posts: 246Member Trainee
So first of all the reason why I'm making this thread is because the balancing in my opinion was mostly poorly done, there was bunch of illogical decisions and some mistakes as well.
And secondly I want to "educate" players, because I have seen bunch illogical suggestions regarding balancing and admins (Fight & Flight) because I want to help the admins to understand what they did wrong and what they could do better and what they need to take into consideration when doing balancing etc.
So moving on into the weapons, l'm going to show some examples of problems with weapons in WR together with some solutions:
1. Having weapons from both Global WR and Korean WR mixed:
Korean WR has completely different balance yet we have many weapons with their balance, therefore sometimes not fitting in our "balance". Example. Mp7A1 Normal vs Blue:
And M249 vs Negev:
Solution: Create a proper balance for all weapons in our version instead of using Korean WR stats for some.
(Though KWR stats are well made in general, wouldn't be a bad thing to copy their balance)
2. Incorrect stats and info in the weapon description:
Like before the patch XM8 stats said that the recoil was 63, but it was incorrect, the actual recoil was closer to 40, so is the recoil now 47 or is it actually 70?
And many snipers have misleading stats, like M40A1/AI_AW/AS50 have 100% damage in the description but they are not 1 shot to chest etc. then you have PSG with 80% damage stat (now 95) that is 1 shot to chest etc. SSG accuracy says 99 but its the least accurate sniper in the game.
Solution: Fix the descriptions of the weapons to be accurate instead of misleading.
(Go trough all the weapons, there are far more weapons with incorrect stats than what I mentioned)
3. Special cash weapons with increased stats (Epic weapons etc.):
Nexon introduced "Epic" weapons that were more stronger versions of existing weapon, to add insult to injury, they made many of the previously overpowered weapons even stronger such as AW50F, Famas etc. even after the recent AW50F nerf, AW50F_Epic remains OP with 100% accuracy (instead of the new 95 or the old 98%).
Solution: Make skinned/special weapons be the same as default ones, no extra stats, just purely cosmetic.
(Also no extra added scopes for weps that normally don't have it like TMP9, M4A1 etc.)
4. Character bonus stats:
There are few problems with Character bonus stats, the first problem is that the headshot/body defences really nerf sniping, you can have like 20% defences so every fifth sniper shot will do zero damage and it also add randomness to the gameplay, this is very uncompetitive which is bad for the game.
Secondly the accuracy bonus will ruin your weapon balancing (especially sniping), like reducing AW50F accuracy 5% has zero effect since players with characters with accuracy bonus will be able to negate that.
Solution: Remove character bonus stats and make them purely cosmetic for other game modes than PVE.
(You could also have custom emotes/sounds exp/dinar bonus etc. for the characters)
Then I'm going to explain about balancing weapons and its process and the stats and how it has been done before in WR/other games and how it could be done properly in WR and also give a feedback about the recent balancing.
1. Weapon stats in WR with few examples because before we go any deeper into the weapon balancing, we need to understand how weapon stats work in WR:
1.1.Damage:
Doing damage is a combination of Base Damage and Damage multiplier, example. a weapon has 50 damage stat, when doing a headshot, generally the multiplier for headshot damage is x1.5, so headshot with base 50 damage weapon will do 75 (50x1.5) and chest/stomach/leg multiplier is around x0.5, example. base 50 damage weapon AK47 does 26% to legs/chest/stomach, so almost 50% while for some weapons/damage stat its exactly 50%. And the hand/arm/feet multiplier seems to be around x0.3-0.45, example. for AK47 with base 50 damage its x0,43 (21.6% damage). (these multipliers are like 90% correct, there are few exceptions)
Some important examples. (milestones) of base damage stats:
-Base Damage 50=kills with 1 shot to head + 1 shot to chest (total 101 dmg) and 4 shot to chest/stomach/leg.
-Base Damage 47=max 5 shot kill anywhere in the body.
-Base Damage 46-40=90% of these kills with 1 hs + shots to 2chest/stomach/leg and with 6-7 shots to hand/arm/feet.
-Base Damage 37 and below=3 shot kill to head.
1.2. Accuracy:
Accuracy is a combination of Accuracy stat, Recoil stat and Speed stat, while accuracy stat shows how accurate a single shot is, the total accuracy is all of these stats combined, since recoil and speed together make recoil total recoil and controlling the recoil increases the spread of the weapon.
There is also "Parabola" aka bullet drop and "ReactAmount" which determinates how fast the weapon gains its maximum accuracy, these mostly matter for snipers but there are some exceptions.
And also Radius (Splash damage) for grenades, launchers etc.
2.Weapon balancing/stat distributing logic in WR with few examples and breaking down the latest balancing with suggestions:
It seems that most weapons stats reflect the IRL stats (Speed, general accuracy/magazine size, weight etc), like you can go to Wikipedia and look for any weapon specifications and they will mostly reflect the WR stats, like take M4A1, it has 70 speed in WR which translates into 700 RPM (Rounds per minute) IRL, Mag size of 30 which is same as IRL and in the Wikipedia M4A1 has "effective firing range of 500m" which reflects the medium-to-long range accuracy (45) of M4A1 well, so basically M4A1 stats in WR reflect IRL stats and its very succesful weapon, one of the most balanced weapon in the game.
2.1.Then lets take another example. the Scar-H, in WR it used to have the following stats:
Damage:50, Speed:70, Accuracy:40, Recoil: 80, Weight:20, Ammo:30/5
Breakdown of the stats with suggested new stats:
-Damage, 50 damage reflects the IRL bullet caliber well, it uses slightly higher caliber ammunition than AK47 which has 50 damage stat as well.
-Speed, 70 (which was and actually still is wrong, its actually higher) speed seems to be actually slightly off compared to IRL, IRL it has an RPM of 550-650, 650 speed would seem pretty balanced speed taking following into concideration.
-Accuracy, 40 with the recoil of 80 and 65 speed seems fine compared to its irl effective range of 600m, less accurate than M4A1 (45acc, effective range 500m IRL) but still effective because of the higher damage.
-Weight, 20 which reflects fairly well into IRL 3.5kg (w/20 ammo) vs M4A1 20 weight (3.4kg IRL, w/30 ammo), but it could use like 1 or 2 more weight.
-Ammo capacity/cartridge, 30, this is where the weapon also went wrong, it has 20 ammo IRL (and in other games in general), so having 20 ammo per magazine would only make sense.
So new stats would be +2 weight, reduce speed to 65, reduce magazine size to 20.
But what they did instead? -4% damage =so it has practically same damage as M4A1:
Scar-h: Base Damage:46, HS:69%, Chest/Stomach:24%, Hand/Arm/Feet:17,25%, Leg:24%
M4a1: Base Damage:43, HS:65%, Chest/Stomach:22.3%, Hand/Arm/Feet:18.6%, Leg:22.3%
=it takes the same amount of bullets to kill no matter how or where you shoot
They left the "bugged/wrong" speed stat there.
Didn't touch the magazine size, now compare rest of the stats:
M4A1 Accuracy:45, Recoil:54, Weight:20, Speed: 70
Scar-H Accuracy:40, Recoil:80, Weight:23, Speed: ~80
= -5% Accuracy, +26% Recoil, +3% Weight for +10% speed? I don't like the trade-off, if I want to use faster assault weapon, why use scar-h when I can use famas as its just straight up better, with my suggested stats Scar-H could be good but fair weapon and also have logical stats reflecting IRL stats well.
2.2.Another weapon they balanced was Vector, all I'm going to say about this one that they increased the weight from 16>22, while Vectors IRL weight is 2.7KG vs like M4A1 3.4 kg weight (20 in WR), it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't fix the biggest problem which was the accuracy (effective firing range IRL is 50 meters while in WR its acc stat is 45 with 45 recoil, eg. M4A1 has 45acc but IRL the range is 500m LOL)
Better solution would have been to reduce the accuracy by around 10%, they did something like this in KWR and it worked well!
2.3.MK1S_DE (Germany), the problem with this grenade launcher was that instead of doing splash damage, you always get the 1 shot kill if the player was within the splash damag radius (3-5M LOL) and instead of fixing that, they nerfed to normal MK1S which is not bad thing in general since that launcher was way better than the other launchers in the game, therefore making them useles.
It seemed that they didn't understand what was wrong with it, so it should be quickly fixed, that weapon is single handedly making people avoid playing many BG maps as its just about uncounterable.
2.4. Spectre & Glock, regardless of the "buffs" these weapons remain worse versions of existing weapons, here is an example:
Mp5k: Base Damage:29, HS:44%, Chest/Stomach:20.3%, Hand/Arm/Feet:10.3%, Leg:20.3%
Glock: Base Damage:28, HS:42%, Chest/Stomach:19.75%, Hand/Arm:10%, Feet:9.8%, Leg:19.75%
Mp5k Accuracy:30, Recoil:51, Ammo: 20/5
Glock Accuracy:20, Recoil:55, Ammo: 17/5
Mp5k has more accuracy, less recoil, better damage, more bullets etc. this isn't a good trade-off for being able to switch between single shot and full auto with Glock, the single shot ability doesn't really help with the pitiful 20 accuracy lol.
And Spectre is just worse Mp7A1.
2.5. Desert Eagle, AK47, P90, G36, I was waiting for buffs for AK47 and Deagle for really long time.
Deagle got recently buffed in KWR, making it 1 shot to head (75 damage) and it felt really nice there, I'm not sure if that damage is good enough, in my opinion the 1 shot ability together with increased recoil and the old 30% accuracy might be better.
G36 stats look good now, but I just feel like the stats are incorrect, it feels less accurate than M4A1 even when they have same accuracy stats, I think it should be double checked that its correct.
And also it has 750RPM IRL, so 75 speed would be more suitable buff.
P90 and AK47 buffs seemed good so far, I think these weapons might have been balanced perfectly actually!
2.6 PSG and AW50F, these were poorly done but you guys prolly understood it as well, big mistake was that these snipers kill with 1 shot into hand/arm now which doesn't make any sense, I will talk more about snipers below at the tips section.
3. Advices for balancing and examples from other games and some useful info:
-When balancing weapons, try to look the weapons in bunch and not just 1 weapon at a time so that there won't be cases about certain weapon being worse version of another weapon like what just happened for Scar-H
-Here is a good example. of how to balance weapons in bunch, imo this close to perfect sniper balance example/suggestions as well, since 1 shot (chest/stomach) snipers should be inaccurate while 1 shot to head snipers should have better accuracy in order to maintain balance and not have it like how we had it in the past which was AW50F having 100% accuracy and damage, therefore making other snipers 99% useless.
And there should be some bullet drop like I mentioned in the linked thread above and to have better balance in BG.
-Looking at the descriptions of weapons from Wikipedia can help a lot too for deciding what kind of stats weapon should have.
-Battlefield 4 snipers bullet drop chart:
-WR damage chart including most of the lately balanced weapons:
Lastly I'm gonna say that most of the information in this thread is correct but there might be some exceptions.
With this information whoever does balancing, should be more succesful next time, I have no doubt about that.
If the Admins need my help for balancing, feel free to contant me in Discord or via PM here.
I wrote this post from ~3 AM until 9:43 AM, hopefully there isn't many mistakes :D
#MakeWrGreatAgain #EngineerSpeak
And secondly I want to "educate" players, because I have seen bunch illogical suggestions regarding balancing and admins (Fight & Flight) because I want to help the admins to understand what they did wrong and what they could do better and what they need to take into consideration when doing balancing etc.
So moving on into the weapons, l'm going to show some examples of problems with weapons in WR together with some solutions:
1. Having weapons from both Global WR and Korean WR mixed:
Korean WR has completely different balance yet we have many weapons with their balance, therefore sometimes not fitting in our "balance". Example. Mp7A1 Normal vs Blue:
And M249 vs Negev:
Solution: Create a proper balance for all weapons in our version instead of using Korean WR stats for some.
(Though KWR stats are well made in general, wouldn't be a bad thing to copy their balance)
2. Incorrect stats and info in the weapon description:
Like before the patch XM8 stats said that the recoil was 63, but it was incorrect, the actual recoil was closer to 40, so is the recoil now 47 or is it actually 70?
And many snipers have misleading stats, like M40A1/AI_AW/AS50 have 100% damage in the description but they are not 1 shot to chest etc. then you have PSG with 80% damage stat (now 95) that is 1 shot to chest etc. SSG accuracy says 99 but its the least accurate sniper in the game.
Solution: Fix the descriptions of the weapons to be accurate instead of misleading.
(Go trough all the weapons, there are far more weapons with incorrect stats than what I mentioned)
3. Special cash weapons with increased stats (Epic weapons etc.):
Nexon introduced "Epic" weapons that were more stronger versions of existing weapon, to add insult to injury, they made many of the previously overpowered weapons even stronger such as AW50F, Famas etc. even after the recent AW50F nerf, AW50F_Epic remains OP with 100% accuracy (instead of the new 95 or the old 98%).
Solution: Make skinned/special weapons be the same as default ones, no extra stats, just purely cosmetic.
(Also no extra added scopes for weps that normally don't have it like TMP9, M4A1 etc.)
4. Character bonus stats:
There are few problems with Character bonus stats, the first problem is that the headshot/body defences really nerf sniping, you can have like 20% defences so every fifth sniper shot will do zero damage and it also add randomness to the gameplay, this is very uncompetitive which is bad for the game.
Secondly the accuracy bonus will ruin your weapon balancing (especially sniping), like reducing AW50F accuracy 5% has zero effect since players with characters with accuracy bonus will be able to negate that.
Solution: Remove character bonus stats and make them purely cosmetic for other game modes than PVE.
(You could also have custom emotes/sounds exp/dinar bonus etc. for the characters)
Then I'm going to explain about balancing weapons and its process and the stats and how it has been done before in WR/other games and how it could be done properly in WR and also give a feedback about the recent balancing.
1. Weapon stats in WR with few examples because before we go any deeper into the weapon balancing, we need to understand how weapon stats work in WR:
1.1.Damage:
Doing damage is a combination of Base Damage and Damage multiplier, example. a weapon has 50 damage stat, when doing a headshot, generally the multiplier for headshot damage is x1.5, so headshot with base 50 damage weapon will do 75 (50x1.5) and chest/stomach/leg multiplier is around x0.5, example. base 50 damage weapon AK47 does 26% to legs/chest/stomach, so almost 50% while for some weapons/damage stat its exactly 50%. And the hand/arm/feet multiplier seems to be around x0.3-0.45, example. for AK47 with base 50 damage its x0,43 (21.6% damage). (these multipliers are like 90% correct, there are few exceptions)
Some important examples. (milestones) of base damage stats:
-Base Damage 50=kills with 1 shot to head + 1 shot to chest (total 101 dmg) and 4 shot to chest/stomach/leg.
-Base Damage 47=max 5 shot kill anywhere in the body.
-Base Damage 46-40=90% of these kills with 1 hs + shots to 2chest/stomach/leg and with 6-7 shots to hand/arm/feet.
-Base Damage 37 and below=3 shot kill to head.
1.2. Accuracy:
Accuracy is a combination of Accuracy stat, Recoil stat and Speed stat, while accuracy stat shows how accurate a single shot is, the total accuracy is all of these stats combined, since recoil and speed together make recoil total recoil and controlling the recoil increases the spread of the weapon.
There is also "Parabola" aka bullet drop and "ReactAmount" which determinates how fast the weapon gains its maximum accuracy, these mostly matter for snipers but there are some exceptions.
And also Radius (Splash damage) for grenades, launchers etc.
2.Weapon balancing/stat distributing logic in WR with few examples and breaking down the latest balancing with suggestions:
It seems that most weapons stats reflect the IRL stats (Speed, general accuracy/magazine size, weight etc), like you can go to Wikipedia and look for any weapon specifications and they will mostly reflect the WR stats, like take M4A1, it has 70 speed in WR which translates into 700 RPM (Rounds per minute) IRL, Mag size of 30 which is same as IRL and in the Wikipedia M4A1 has "effective firing range of 500m" which reflects the medium-to-long range accuracy (45) of M4A1 well, so basically M4A1 stats in WR reflect IRL stats and its very succesful weapon, one of the most balanced weapon in the game.
2.1.Then lets take another example. the Scar-H, in WR it used to have the following stats:
Damage:50, Speed:70, Accuracy:40, Recoil: 80, Weight:20, Ammo:30/5
Breakdown of the stats with suggested new stats:
-Damage, 50 damage reflects the IRL bullet caliber well, it uses slightly higher caliber ammunition than AK47 which has 50 damage stat as well.
-Speed, 70 (which was and actually still is wrong, its actually higher) speed seems to be actually slightly off compared to IRL, IRL it has an RPM of 550-650, 650 speed would seem pretty balanced speed taking following into concideration.
-Accuracy, 40 with the recoil of 80 and 65 speed seems fine compared to its irl effective range of 600m, less accurate than M4A1 (45acc, effective range 500m IRL) but still effective because of the higher damage.
-Weight, 20 which reflects fairly well into IRL 3.5kg (w/20 ammo) vs M4A1 20 weight (3.4kg IRL, w/30 ammo), but it could use like 1 or 2 more weight.
-Ammo capacity/cartridge, 30, this is where the weapon also went wrong, it has 20 ammo IRL (and in other games in general), so having 20 ammo per magazine would only make sense.
So new stats would be +2 weight, reduce speed to 65, reduce magazine size to 20.
But what they did instead? -4% damage =so it has practically same damage as M4A1:
Scar-h: Base Damage:46, HS:69%, Chest/Stomach:24%, Hand/Arm/Feet:17,25%, Leg:24%
M4a1: Base Damage:43, HS:65%, Chest/Stomach:22.3%, Hand/Arm/Feet:18.6%, Leg:22.3%
=it takes the same amount of bullets to kill no matter how or where you shoot
They left the "bugged/wrong" speed stat there.
Didn't touch the magazine size, now compare rest of the stats:
M4A1 Accuracy:45, Recoil:54, Weight:20, Speed: 70
Scar-H Accuracy:40, Recoil:80, Weight:23, Speed: ~80
= -5% Accuracy, +26% Recoil, +3% Weight for +10% speed? I don't like the trade-off, if I want to use faster assault weapon, why use scar-h when I can use famas as its just straight up better, with my suggested stats Scar-H could be good but fair weapon and also have logical stats reflecting IRL stats well.
2.2.Another weapon they balanced was Vector, all I'm going to say about this one that they increased the weight from 16>22, while Vectors IRL weight is 2.7KG vs like M4A1 3.4 kg weight (20 in WR), it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't fix the biggest problem which was the accuracy (effective firing range IRL is 50 meters while in WR its acc stat is 45 with 45 recoil, eg. M4A1 has 45acc but IRL the range is 500m LOL)
Better solution would have been to reduce the accuracy by around 10%, they did something like this in KWR and it worked well!
2.3.MK1S_DE (Germany), the problem with this grenade launcher was that instead of doing splash damage, you always get the 1 shot kill if the player was within the splash damag radius (3-5M LOL) and instead of fixing that, they nerfed to normal MK1S which is not bad thing in general since that launcher was way better than the other launchers in the game, therefore making them useles.
It seemed that they didn't understand what was wrong with it, so it should be quickly fixed, that weapon is single handedly making people avoid playing many BG maps as its just about uncounterable.
2.4. Spectre & Glock, regardless of the "buffs" these weapons remain worse versions of existing weapons, here is an example:
Mp5k: Base Damage:29, HS:44%, Chest/Stomach:20.3%, Hand/Arm/Feet:10.3%, Leg:20.3%
Glock: Base Damage:28, HS:42%, Chest/Stomach:19.75%, Hand/Arm:10%, Feet:9.8%, Leg:19.75%
Mp5k Accuracy:30, Recoil:51, Ammo: 20/5
Glock Accuracy:20, Recoil:55, Ammo: 17/5
Mp5k has more accuracy, less recoil, better damage, more bullets etc. this isn't a good trade-off for being able to switch between single shot and full auto with Glock, the single shot ability doesn't really help with the pitiful 20 accuracy lol.
And Spectre is just worse Mp7A1.
2.5. Desert Eagle, AK47, P90, G36, I was waiting for buffs for AK47 and Deagle for really long time.
Deagle got recently buffed in KWR, making it 1 shot to head (75 damage) and it felt really nice there, I'm not sure if that damage is good enough, in my opinion the 1 shot ability together with increased recoil and the old 30% accuracy might be better.
G36 stats look good now, but I just feel like the stats are incorrect, it feels less accurate than M4A1 even when they have same accuracy stats, I think it should be double checked that its correct.
And also it has 750RPM IRL, so 75 speed would be more suitable buff.
P90 and AK47 buffs seemed good so far, I think these weapons might have been balanced perfectly actually!
2.6 PSG and AW50F, these were poorly done but you guys prolly understood it as well, big mistake was that these snipers kill with 1 shot into hand/arm now which doesn't make any sense, I will talk more about snipers below at the tips section.
3. Advices for balancing and examples from other games and some useful info:
-When balancing weapons, try to look the weapons in bunch and not just 1 weapon at a time so that there won't be cases about certain weapon being worse version of another weapon like what just happened for Scar-H
-Here is a good example. of how to balance weapons in bunch, imo this close to perfect sniper balance example/suggestions as well, since 1 shot (chest/stomach) snipers should be inaccurate while 1 shot to head snipers should have better accuracy in order to maintain balance and not have it like how we had it in the past which was AW50F having 100% accuracy and damage, therefore making other snipers 99% useless.
And there should be some bullet drop like I mentioned in the linked thread above and to have better balance in BG.
-Looking at the descriptions of weapons from Wikipedia can help a lot too for deciding what kind of stats weapon should have.
-Battlefield 4 snipers bullet drop chart:
-WR damage chart including most of the lately balanced weapons:
Lastly I'm gonna say that most of the information in this thread is correct but there might be some exceptions.
With this information whoever does balancing, should be more succesful next time, I have no doubt about that.
If the Admins need my help for balancing, feel free to contant me in Discord or via PM here.
I wrote this post from ~3 AM until 9:43 AM, hopefully there isn't many mistakes :D
#MakeWrGreatAgain #EngineerSpeak
Comments
Much needed features on a forum
Much needed features on a forum
Killingtime for Admin!
Educate yourselves people!
Pic is me trying to make WR a better game.
1.papaya please fix slot weapon error
2.papaya please fix weapon damage error
3.papaya please fix server lagg latency 70-90
since korean ver 2005y
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFvaKyOXvxWCtuWJAKmchQA/videos?view_as=subscriber
New year, new bump. 8-)
Please leave your thoughts guys! Especially if you disagree with something and keep it calm.