Here is what bug me most about how this game is run

Oberrill · September 2018

No editing? Too far forward.

Culvern · September 2018

@oberill The problem with you little temper tantrum post is that what others do in the game DOES affect the game in general.
There are many who blame pirates for much, but according to your take, what pirates do is none of your business.

It is foolish to think that way and extremely close minded and I would guess self justifying.

Players that break rules or find loop holes in the system hurts the game. I don't understand how one can argue against that?

Oberrill · September 2018

I see where you could have misunderstood my post. The post I quoted was concerning people playing two or three toons. I thought you would make the mental leap, but whatever. I was only meaning that using two or three toons does not affect other people. I played for years through three different publishers and never found myself affected by multi-toon players.
It was not a temper tantrum. It was a disgust tantrum. In my years of playing, I sailed with two toons maybe 10 times? I have nothing to be angry about. I just hate to see someone denigrating other players for no valid reason.

Culvern · September 2018

The point is that those that sail with 2-3 toons does affect the game.
At least those that do it to bring back 9000+ nanban goods and contribute to the games inflation.
The inflation affects all players especially the new players.
I know I will here a ton of comments claiming that 'it doesn't cause inflation' , but that will be from those that are doing it.

I don't have any problem with players that use alts for skills, shipbuilding, storage, bazaars and such since that really has little impact on others.

I sure you can see where adding money to the economy with 3 toons inflates it faster than would occur with one toon.

I apologize if i seem a bit pissy about the topic. I guess I am just tired of hearing how much damage pirates do to the game, while no one else can catch any blame for their actions.

I know pirates can have a negative effect on players and the population.
It would be nice to see others own up to their actions as well.

Oberrill · September 2018

I can see what you mean about inflation. It never really affected me because I hardly ever purchased anything. I made what I used or I did not use it. I sold items I made and always sold for very low prices. I sold my Nanban and India goods to market keepers. I NEVER auto-sailed, used the Panams Canal, or the NA railroad. I built low-level ships and sold them at cost to newer players. I was in OGP land before I was able to buy my first player-made ship that was better than mediocre.
I played the game for fun, not to amass faux wealth or be able to brag about how great my ship is. Although I was primarily a solo player, I was there to help out new players at times, and even to hep a veteran on occassion. When I quit the game, I gave all of my money and items to the most stand-up player I knew.
In short, I believe in players being able to play as they want as long as it does not affect others' gameplay. I am not convinced that multi-toon play has a negative effect. I believe in-game inflation is caused by player greed. More than once I caught players buying my items at my low prices and then immediately setting up a bazaar asking about double what they just paid. I finally quit bazaaring and sold only to people I knew would not resell, or to NPC merchants.
In the real world, a large supply leads to lower prices, If multi-toons means more items are being put into the game, prices should actually go down. That they do not is because of player greed. Players having more money means they can afford more, that is true. But prices do not HAVE to rise.

Oberrill · September 2018

Edit: PanamA Canal

Culvern · September 2018

True it is the player greed that drives the prices and need to accumulate wealth.
Then when an item come up for sale it is hard to purchase against those that have amassed large amounts of cash.
An example would be a high end ship ticket. They have gone for 60-80 billion for a ticket.
For the casual player or even a fairly wealthy player that is an insane price, but since there are enough players that have that money and are willing to pay it. That is now the price.
If those people earn their cash honestly with hard work, good for them.
If they corrupted the system because they enjoy finding loopholes or exploit game mechanics to get that cash, then that hurts the game.

I play a solo game myself. I don't try to be the best, I try to enjoy my time.
There are item, gear, and ships I wish I had but I cannot afford. I realize I don't want those items bad enough to work hard enough or exploit the system enough to get them.

I also don't blame the player that tries selling a ship for 80b. If someone is happy buying it for that much....

Personally I sell most of my stuff below the going price I think. I prefer to sell quick and not waste time selling.

carlalex · September 2018

I dispute the claim that there is inflation in game and I have only done one nanban run the past 3 months because I was in the area anyway after the EIB.

Sure, the price of some items have gone up, but the cost of a lot of other items have dropped to the point where noone bothers crafting or farming them anymore - just see how qmp and food prices have plumetted. And once that 80b ship is no longer the coolest one in game anymore good luck trying to get your investment back.

And there are plenty ducat sources more effective than nanban.

1, Buyng UWC items and reselling them - I bet this is the LARGEST by far source of ducats.

2. SF "nanban" day (regular trade - not nanban), where the instant gratification crowd can accumulate as much as they can stuff into their holds, aide bazaars etc.for almost no effort at all.

3. Papaya handing out 300m+ items like urobos books as bloody daily login rewards.

4. When Atlantis was there I could farm about 500m worth of oricalcum in 3-4h (more than I could earn doing nanban the same period).

And probably more I havent thought of.

And there is nothing preventing anyone from making ducats doing nanban or these ways (except 1,), so if you need more ducats getting them is EASY.

Culvern · September 2018

UWC items, daily rewards, or Atlantis items do not create ducats.....
They do not introduce new money into the economy.
The largest thing doing that is nanban. About 90%. (Including the San Fran nanban)
They other items you mentioned just transfer ducats from one player to another which does not create inflation.

Sure the free uroboros book could generate cash but only if you sold it to the Shopkeeper for 10k.

Yes food has dropped in price due to the millionaire box.
Pretty much everything else has gone up and up over the past 6 years.

6 years back you were buying top of the line ships for under 1b

Vesuvious · September 2018

Id just like to say.... holy ffffamily... CPC .... i just thought id stick my nose in UWO's forum for the 1st time in 3+ years.... and there you are you old sea wench lol

SebasLi · September 2018

TBH this game isn't designed to be either way. It is designed as an open world sandbox so that players can explore different ways to play it. I personally use 3 toons, with my main as a merchant and my alts as maritimer and adventurer, respectively. But I do RESPECT Culvern and other players who stick to the 1-toon principle. It's up to us.

Prestiga · September 2018

I agree with Wes about the toons...I had a couple partners that had a habit of falling asleep at the most worst times..was not a pretty picture. I dont use 3, but sometimes 2, and not all the time...usually only when I need a fleet and nobody else is around or whatever.

carlalex · September 2018

@Culvern - pretty much everything ????

QMP, Miser chains, RIBs have become all but worthless, Nanban goods lost 1/3 of their value in a nerf, dungeon nerf certainly reduced ESBT price. When I began playing UWO 100 def fools hands traded at 1.5B, now they trade at 1.3B or less. In general the price of crafted items hve gone down.

And the peddlars, item shops and craftsmen have the exact same price they have always had.

There are also PLENTY very nice ships you can get for a B or less - noone NEEDS a 80b ship.

And no, its NOT the money supply that causes inflation, its people being willing to pay more for the same stuff as they become more wealthy. Why do you think noone IRL use precious metals as backing money ? Can you imagine what happens to an economy that runs out of money - not as in it being poor, but as in it doesnt have enough coins to go around because all the coins are sitting idle in peoples coffers where they keep them.

lefox271 · September 2018

I got a Book of Uburos as a login reward. So it's worth 300 mil ducats!!

If I sold it I would more than double the money my alchemist has in the bank.

I've got three toons. Sometimes two play together. But I certainly ain't rich.

But in fairness to Culvern it's not me he's talking about.

Oberrill · September 2018

After reading the newer posts it seems to me that in addition to player greed, the other driver of inflation is UWC. I remember reading months ago, complaints about drop rates of bottles or whatever they are called. (I never gambled). If drop rates go down, and/or prices of bottles rise, then cetainly players are going to want more ducats for the UWC items they are selling.

Culvern · September 2018

Drop rates do play a huge role in the prices of ships. Some are so uncommon that they will demand the crazy prices.
But UWC still does not generate extra money in the economy it just moves it from one player to another.
If you could sell the UWC item to the Shopkeeper for 80b then it would generate inflation.

As I have said many times, I have never had any issue with those that use alts for different roles. Using them to complete tasks or for maritime adventure, trade, crafting is fine.

It's the alt that is created and used only as a mule to do the nanban runs that I see as destructive to the economy. Their only purpose is to rapidly gather wealth.

Also I do understand that the game is a sandbox MMO. That does not explain that in order to play your allowed 3 toons (allowed by the server. Not designed by the creator) you need 2 computers and 3 game sessions opened.
Find any game in history that the requirements to play require 2 computers?
Any game designed to be played as a party, I do mean ANY game, allows you to control the party from one session. That how EVERY one is designed.
The server says you can play 3 so go ahead.
But don't lie to yourself about it.
It's like pirating movies on the internet, you might say it's fine, its not stealing. It is. I don't care if you do it, but it is stealing no matter how you try to justify it. Own your actions and be honest with yourself.

I pirate. I know my actions can have a negative impact on the players and population. I own my actions and choices. I don't try to justify it by saying "it is part of the game", "it's to control multiboxing". Nope. I like it.

@lefox271 and yes those uroboros books you can sell for 300-350m each easy.

lefox271 · September 2018

@Culvern the funny thing is that I'm more likely to sell the Uroboros book because I want the inventory space than because I want the ducats! My alchemist is R8+2 - I won't get rid of it until I find out what it does lol. Er ... Transmutation??? As a gamer I'm more motivated by solving puzzles than making ducats.

I agree with you people should take responsibility for their actions. I guess sometimes the impact of what we do is indirect - it's difficult to make the connection sometimes. And I guess that's why pirates take more stick because the connection is more direct.

Earlier this year we had a big debate about piracy. People like you and HelloAll persuaded me I should try it to see it from your perspective. I did. And I do. But I was UWO's most unsuccessful pirate. It didn't really 'float my boat' - but thanks to you I've got a third Alt now who is a maritimer and I have a lot of fun on stuff like rare plunder.

I hear what you say about the game controls not being designed for party control. Yes ... but. I just can't make the leap to your conclusion I'm doing something wrong or bad when 2 of my Alts team up. Even describing what I do as 'exploiting a loophole' feels judgmental to me.

I also agree with you when you say top end items are more expensive than they used to be. It's undeniable. But the only place I disagree with you is in giving it a simple cause - spamming Nanban in multi-boxed fleets.

Okay - we're only talking about a game economy. But just like in real life, everything that happens is inter-connected and has unexpected and unpredictable consequences. You can only pick out one particular factor by simplifying it. And 'simplifying' means you have to ignore everything it's connected to (including all the connections you didn't expect or predict).

I've been thinking about starting a thread on the economy. But it's going to mean some long posts. Lol.

Culvern · September 2018

I agree that the nanban is not the only thing that affects economy. Just that so many that do the 3-5 toon fleet do not realize or admit the impact that their actions have.

Whitejacket · September 2018

@carlalex

I really do not understand how you cannot see the problem. Unless, of course, you are neck deep in it.

Increasing the money supply increases inflation. This is basic economics.

And as I have stated on the other (somewhat hijacked) thread that discussed this issue, just because someone buys a uwc item, it does NOT entitle them to think they should receive large amounts of ducats. That's part of the greed.

Not 30 minutes ago I saw someone trying to sell an unmodded G6 SHC for 25B. C'mon man. A few weeks ago, Ambush Victories were 15B. Sure, the grading might be 5B, and it's definitely a great ship, but 25B? Please.

As I've mentioned already, there needs to be a capital tax (highest tier would be 100% at a certain point) so the ducats can be dumped out of the game.

There would be very little need for Nanban alts. You'll see the prices come down REAL fast for EVERYTHING. People are going to bitch and whine about it, and that is just too bad. I know one player who is absolutely not having fun because they are constantly doing Nanban runs to get money. As for the other ways to make money you mention, they are certainly viable, but as Culvern rightly said, it's just a ducat transfer. I do not understand how you cannot see this.

Many new players are discouraged about the prices. I know this for a fact. You know what else? I had spoken to another player about this very issue a few weeks back, and he agreed that most players don't even want to change it, yet they complain about the economy. You can even see such comments on ivyro.

For the last time, it's the greedy sellers, nanban multiboxing and EA dungeon looting, and price fixers ruining the game, with no restraint on these activities. Nothing else is causing such problems at the end of the day. Don't believe me? Look at the reaction when ANY disruption in the economy is had - like the easing of pvp restrictions, for example (the pirates get blamed). Or my suggestion about taxes, as another example. Forget the pirates - go after the people I just described - they are the real problem.

Whitejacket · September 2018

One other point - I'm not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse, but no one cares about npc prices. This isn't what we are talking about.

Your post actually proved my point. Of course QMPS went down in price, they became available at the adventure guild shop. Miser chains are available in the trade guild shop. Why were they even being sold for such inflated prices before this change in the first place? Can you answer me that?

RIBs should never have been expensive. I made about 950 in 30 minutes, and I still have 800 of them.

Don't confuse ducat generation with ducat transfer.

Too much of the player base here is concerned with advantage and getting ahead instead of having fun. There seems to be this moving mechanism of force in the game that drives the thinking of players like yourself into thinking what you are doing is right without even questioning it. Your do it because everyone else is doing it. It is as if a subgroup of players are like toll booths at a bridge and don't allow you to cross unless you pay up, but these people don't realize they shouldn't be in the toll booth. Seems like bullying to me. Find the people controlling this process and their accomplices and you have the problem players.

lefox271 · September 2018

@Whitejacket I get where you're coming from when you talk about how players impact the game. I think it's a bit judgemental to call it 'greed' - for some people the object of the game is wealth accumulation. I prefer Culvern's take on it - Play how you like, just take responsibility for how it might impact others.

I also think you were unnecessarily harsh on carlalex.

My main issue with what you say is this: there is nothing 'basic' about the link between money supply and inflation. Ask an economist and she'll tell you "sometimes they seem linked and sometimes they don't."

I'll just point out a simple fallacy in your argument. In a country where there is no currency and goods are traded directly, you can still get price inflation. If there is a good crop if carrots one year, their value against cabbages will drop.

You don't need money for there to be inflation. And that throws into doubt the idea that there is a difference between ducat generation and ducat transfer.

If you think laterally the important thing going on is the exchange, not the price.

I'm not saying Nanban is not inflationary. I'm just saying there's more to it than you are admitting.

Whitejacket · September 2018

@lefox271

It's true that economics in real life is complicated. But the economy is not really that complicated in this game. The problem with your example with respect to the crops is that the scenario and circumstances you describe doesn't exist in uwo. I think you are overcomplicating the in-game economy. I can always purchase the same amount of a good at any given level and make a profit if I sell it in the right place. There is no layered complexity there. True, the market prices fluctuate somewhat from the npcs, but you cannot tell me that they make much difference in the long run.

Don't misunderstand me though - I am not saying that ducat generation in-game is bad per se. It's definitely needed because we need to make money. The issue is that there are not enough restraints on it at higher level profit generation.

There is no ambiguity between ducat generation and ducat transfer. I spend 2M on costs and come back from EA and make 85M. That is ducat generation. Heck, ducat generation exists in Europe as well, albeit to a much smaller degree of course. The difference though, is that a lot of that profit is curtailed by sailing costs, cost of in-game items, aide and sailor salaries, etc.

There might be more to the inflation problem than nanban, sure, but nanban is by far the largest chunk. There was a comment on ivyro somewhere even stating it outright. Before nanban (and probably SEA as well) the consensus from what I read was that the prices were lower and the ecomony was in far better shape. It's not a coincidence.

Re: "for some people the object of the game is wealth accumulation." Why? How many ducats could possibly be needed in-game (aside from the ridiculous prices among players for uwc items of course)?

Carlalex can take care of himself/herself. She/he called me out on the other thread and opposed my argument.

You know what though, I'll just agree to disagree. It's clear to me that the majority of players aren't interested in changing it, and it's pointless to comment on it since I'm not really important in the game anyway. For me, it's so clear. Papaya actually gave us a gift with the reset as far as the economy was concerned. But, one player (or others) started the ball rolling by probably saying something like: "Well, on Gama, the price for [insert item] was [insert Gama price] and everything went downhill from there. Many players are scared to alter their gameplay style - especially veterans - because they are too comfortable with the way things have played out economy, even though it's so bad.

Think about it.

viennas · September 2018

This game contains a lot of older players, actually they are a big majority in this game. The game is outdated in practically everything. The game itself is essentially quite different to play as it was 5 + years ago, when the game wasn't hardcore pay 2 win yet. Now is milking of a dead cow.... The entire adventure system is entirely irrelevant and worthless. It's only if you really enjoy discoveries, why bother to sail 1 hour for 1 quest scroll and 20.000 coins, it's a joke. A lot of items was rendered worthless with the time due to pay 2 win, now you can buy almost everything in a cash shop, much better as any crafter or adventurer can offer. Of course, nothing else is left as doing nanban with 20 avatars if possible, to keep up with this self destructive system of credit card - in game money conversation rates. This game would need badly another reset, a publisher who would run the game as it was intended almost 10 years ago,..without all those god ships, & god like items...the game would be much more lively, balanced,...but I doubt we will ever see glory days of UWO again, maybe in UWO 2 if it ever comes out.

Kanaes · September 2018

Well, here's my 2 cents, even if i really can't play the game because of Gameguard being the malware shit that it is. Almost every single GameGuard patch does something horrifying and tries to actively break something on every computer that has the misfortune of housing it.

Anyway, to the point: The game definately was never designed to be played with multiboxing with 3 alts...

but realistically, you must at the very least have 2-3 bank alts if you ever aim to produce anything, and quite possibly more for bazaaring. The gougey price of even simple inventory space is unbearable, and extremely limited even if you pour the money for all the possible storages available. I really, really dislike the practice of towing massive trader alts around, but since there has been no real official word against it, the practice continues, yet the benefit is too ridiculously good.

On the other hand, the benefit isn't there just for traders. Sorry pirates, but we've known for years even the dumbest of you (hi PieRat) know to use scout alts that sit in ports and passages out of harms way. Of course, some laudable individuals choose not to (Hi Culvern).

Furthermore, multiboxing really screwed up the early game race prices too. A lot of people particularly in the adventure section practically cheated and exploited their way to the top in a way that more or less required an alt.

It's a difficult issue. You can't really enact an IP restriction because then people playing from the same household (or sometimes flat or dorm in case of internal switch) couldn't play together or at the same time, and in fleets its common for the other people to be semi-afk on long distance sail so it's not something that's easy to detect without tossing some annoying minigame at people or something to check whether or not they're active or just a multiboxed alt.

Anyhow, i'm just tossing my 2 cents here, i wish i had the resources to work on the spiritual successor i talked about back in OGP. I have a rough prototype with extremely rudimentary proof-of-concept gameplay, but it's not going anywhere without some talent for certain gameplay and graphical aspects, and that costs money.

Whitejacket · September 2018

@Kanaes @viennas

I'm not convinced that having 3 toons is an in-game issue, unless of course they are used to farm ducats via nanban. On Gama, I had one toon, and it was quite difficult to do all that I wanted. Adventure was pretty much out the window, since I preferred trade and maritime. Now I have three unique and varied toons and they aren't nanban drones.

If they would give more skill slots to a toon, and I'm talking about at least ten more, then maybe one toon would be more fun, provided that prices are reasonable, but then we've come back to the economy problem again, and we know most are very happy to not fix an admitted broken system.

Another reset would destroy the player base at this point, so that's not the answer. But, yeah, one toon is nice; I know it's hard for me at times to play with three, especially when pirates are after them! :p

I'm not sure if I'd consider this game a pure pay-to-win, it seems more like play-to-win. But I believe that if you can get items from the cash shop, they should be somewhat better than in-game crafted items (except for ships, since we can't choose to buy a certain ship outright) - unless of course we have to pay the ridiculous current ducat prices for many cash ships, but then we've run into the economy problem again.

It's true that there are veteran players. That's what makes some of the comments I see from these veterans so surprising sometimes.

It's a great game; lots to do for sure. I just think it's being thoughtlessly derailed somewhat for the sake of some players' emotional security. It's often hard to get off the merry-go-round.

Akuteruye · September 2018

How is this game still alive? Stick a fork in it already and code a Uncharted Waters Online 2!

I
used to play this game last spring. Created a new character and am
level 2 now. The game was broken then, it's broken now. Let it die
already. I still have the Nintendo Uncharted Waters New Horizons game,
sure the pixels are an eyesore but game play is better.

CrzyPsycoChick · September 2018

This is how I feel about it all

Economy is in the eye of the beholder:

Honestly all this talk of the economy is all dependent on who you ask really.

Pirates blame everything on traders like there's hundreds of traders all in these 6 clairmonts all bringing 9000 nanban a run lol. Then get back and magically have 2 billion ducats and then somehow that makes everything more expensive it's ludicrous lmao.Its a very very very small minority who I've seen doing it and I'm here at Seville the nanban capital. Having a few people uber rich NEVER will raise prices across the board. The majority simply don't do this.

Traders believe inflation is caused by the bottle and incentive. I fall in this category I believe ships being 100bil isn't some greedy trader trying to take advantage but rather because the drop rate is so low it makes it a rare commodity take SSB+1 used to be 10bil then it flooded bottle it dropped to 100mil at one point. In addition incentive plays a large role let's say SSB again it's a hard to get item so expect high prices.

Adventures blame trader greed as well even going as far as avoiding Seville entirely. They don't deal in the financial so they simplify Seville as just some traders randomly inflating prices by 500% just to turn a profit they don't consider the supply demand incentive portion that is the TRUE driving force behind prices.

Multibox:

Just not a big deal honestly ban all multibox now prices won't drop at all again it's just people looking to blame traders as usual. People WILL find a way to get money whether they do rapid spice runs, spend on Papaya coins dungeon all day railroad nanban multi or singular players will hoarde money it won't change a darn thing I'm sorry pirates find a new scapegoat.

How to deal with inflation :

The only effective way to deal with inflation is raise bottle rates on uber low rates and give incentive for people to get and make stuff once incentive is gone prices raise as its rare and you need to make people get it. Look at 100 atk crafted weapons you can barely find any as incentive is gone pretty soon people simply will stop making them and if you need them made expect it to be 200mil and up or you simply won't find them anymore.

Kanaes · September 2018

@Akuteruye Given that you get level 2 basically for logging in and talking to one person once, that's... not really an endorsement what you have written there.

The game is alive and updated because Grand Voyage Online still has an active and vibrant player base, in part because it's a subscription system which has been requested from each of the holders of the games' license since gpotato time and time again, yet the monetization in the west never changes, as much as i love the game and the community on the western end of things, the game really is a shadow of its glory here, and we're the far-behind secondary market.

It's an entirely different beast to play the Japanese version which some players who have played it can attest to, but of course entirely unapproachable unless you happen to learn the language and jump through the legal hoops to play it.

Kanaes · September 2018

@Culvern

I know you bang the drum about pirates being potentially harmful to the game, and with you being a pirate at all, i shouldn't be able to disagree, but i do.

The vast overwhelming majority of the pirates i've met in the game are the nicest people in the game. A bit of trash talk from certain people (JoLeNe in certain circumstances, but it's just banter) and such, but it's expectable and not harmful. The times i've done my Nth nanban run of the day/week/month, i've been happy to bump into a pirate, even if i get dropped. Without the effort that player pirates put into screwing around with players, i think nanban traders would've not only made the inflation worse, but also quit a long time ago.

I don't want to talk trash of the blues, but there lies a large problem in some people. In this case i want to spotlight a particular person i had the misfortune of... handling as a comp member whose actions go way beyond reasonable, to the point of idiotic and childish griefing of total newbie pirates just for the sake that they dared to try piracy.

I'll just call him by name, since i know of his actions: Kosevo. Not limited to, but including repeatedly griefed complete newbies to the game, just killing, insulting and doing everything in his way to terrorize them repeatedly until they either logged out, or weren't red anymore from notoriety drain. That, if anything is damaging to the game. I background reported his actions without confronting him directly to Papaya back then through one of the CAs, which i forget whom, but no action was taken to stop this behavior, and he kept bragging about it for weeks upon weeks. Eventually his actions and general ill behavior was enough to get him thrown out of the comp, but by this time it was too late.

Here is what bug me most about how this game is run

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