No ESF = Poor Sportsmanship

purplepirate · August 2019

So...There was no ESF this weekend much to the disappointment of many people on the server. I feel I have to say that the reasons for this are completely unacceptable. In the past, there has been a cancellation to the event but that was because of a technical glitch in the program, so the GM's canceled it. This time however it was due to the selfish decision of the Dutch players for NO other reason other than they don't want to take a loss. Good strategy, bad sportsmanship...

Generally, ESF voting is decided by how countries are ranked on the world standings. Each month of ESF, the countries rotate as to whom is the aggressor, so eventually all 6 nations (Ottoman excluded) get a chance to gain the benefits of taking over other country's towns and ranking of the world standings. But even if you are the aggressor, if you loose the ESF (dropping that nation on the world standings), then the defender can gain control of your ports, this is a fair and balanced rule.

Usually, as both the world standings and in game politics have had it, the main competing sides are Dutch/Spain/France vs England/Venice/Portugal. The sides fluctuate a bit depending on how the world standings affect the voting, but generally the sides end up as such. Now in the game, the lowest populated (and fewest pvp players)countries are Portugal and and Venice. The largest concentration of pvp'ers are from Spain and England (Dutch and France are about tied in the middle). So overall, it's really about Spain and England when it comes to pvp fighting. The Dutch will use the strength of their pvp allies to 'tie' up and stall their opponents while they farm npc's for points, this is why the Dutch are the leaders on the world standings partially from winning pretty much every ESF. Ironically, Spain has done the work for the Dutch to be the world leaders in this game lol.

This ESF it was the Dutch's time to be the agressor and vote whom to attack. Because they are the top in the world standings they could only vote against the #2 and #3 countries (this rule is to balance that the strongest nation won't keep attacking the weakest nation all the time), Spain and France are currently in those spots. According to the Dutch, they chose not to participate this ESF since either way they voted, Spain would be allied with England, and since they lack the pvp players that Spain and England have, it was better to cancel the event for EVERYONE rather than take a loss in the world standings. Everyone has to take a loss from time to time it's what keeps this game balanced for everyone. But this doesn't seem to apply to them, so i ask...

Is this going to be the NEW PARADIGM for the future of ESF where if a team doesn't have a GUARANTEED VICTORY that they'll just say 'screw everyone else', no one gets to play? Like i said, this is good strategy but shows very bad sportsmanship!

The irony of all of this is that there was no guarantee that it would even be Spain/England alliance since England could've just voted to support the Dutch but we weren't given that choice since the event was canceled due to the protest of the Dutch over the voting choices! Everyone has to take a loss from time to time it's what keeps this game balanced for everyone. It's not as if the game of UWO is going to end just because the Dutch loose ONE ESF and drop a few points on the world standings!

Another factor that wouldn't guaranteed a Dutch loss is the fact that there might not have even been a big turnout from Spain/England team up. ESF isn't what it was back in the days of OGP and earlier and being summer now means that people are busy with work/school/summer holidays so there is a possibility that Dutch are over reacting at the circumstances for this round. But even still, so what? It makes for a better strategist that can compete against greater odds.

"It is better to try and fail than never try at all" William F.O'brien

This passage carries a lot of ethical meaning and I think the Dutch can learn a strong lesson about it. For those of you who have participated in the ESF's since the beginning of Maris should remember a player named Naver. In the early days of Maris there was an ESF event that ended up having all the main world powers against Venice. He protested the team up for various reasons (some where that it was 'arranged' that way to go against Naver's radical views to some rules in the game at that time), but did he get the option to cancel the ESF? NO! But did Venice play and atleast try? YES! Even in the face of overwhelming odds, Naver still had Venice play and everyone still had fun. Venice lost, but so what? Life in UWO went on...

Not everyone plays ESF just for a 'win', some participate for the ESF tickets that you get for playing. Others play because they need court ranks for their characters. Others still use it for a platform to an introduction to maritime play, since you don't have to do pvp but can play against npc's as well. Aggressor or defender, anyone can play for their own reasons since this isn't a game about one country, it's about the UWO community, everyone is welcome. If a country is going to take this route then they should have some penalty against them, this keeps the game balanced!

So, shame on the Dutch for what i see are 'petty' reasons for canceling the ESF this month. I'm sure my disappointment is shared by others, but my fears for what this means for future ESF's will affect everyone if this becomes the norm for gameplay. Shame on all of you...

rangerzfan · August 2019

There are many things in this game many do not like. ESF is a choice. For better or worse it is a choice a nation can make. No nation should be forced into ESF just because other nations are upset. Being upset is fine, but when it is England's turn to vote, then vote for a port. Sportsmanship be damned. How sporting is it when a trade ship is attacked by a fully armed and 300 crew row ship? It is just part of the game that we all have to deal with.

purplepirate · August 2019

@rangerzfan when it is England's turn to vote, then vote for a port

Your 'solution' only reinforces my argument for this action...

Is this going to be the NEW PARADIGM for the future of ESF where if a
team doesn't have a GUARANTEED VICTORY that they'll just say 'screw
everyone else', no one gets to play?

My issue is more related to the fact that a country can do this repeatedly without penalty. If a nation doesn't want to participate when their turn comes up then there should be a penalty against that nation for the month. If they don't want a penalty then atleast try. As i said... my fears for what this means for future ESF's.

As for your statement...

How sporting is it when a trade ship is attacked by a fully armed and 300 crew row ship

This is totally irrelevant as it doesn't apply. Playing a pirate profession is completely different ethics (people don't play a thief role if they want to be nice to people) and since the game provides defence's for this (tribs and blue flags) your statement doesn't make sense. Whether a pirate attacks you with 30 crew or 300 crew doesn't change the fact that that's the role they are playing.

rangerzfan · August 2019

Whether a pirate attacks you with 30 crew or 300 crew doesn't change the fact that that's the role they are playing.

As many are fond of saying in these forums, there are many roles to play in this game and the Dutch chose to play a national role and observe.

my fears for what this means for future ESF's.

And that is a legitimate concern you are entitled to possess. Due to the nature of the voting, it is possible others choose this path. Even England can outvote its Martime players and choose to observe. It has been an option for years over multiple servers. The Dutch did not get a unanimous vote for the choice.

purplepirate · August 2019

Dutch chose to play a national role and observe./The Dutch did not get a unanimous vote for the choice

You're ignoring the reasons I stated behind it and 'cherry picking' your facts to support you. The fact that you even said it wasn't unanimous shows that, which is why I also stated that it was "Good strategy but shows bad sportsmanship". The Dutch lead the world standings and can afford to take a loss once in awhile, this is about the community not the individual. Based on your statement, this show's that only a small handful of players decided the fate of the whole server so there should be some penalty for that...

wsp414 · August 2019

The vote was about 60:40. There were many dutch who didn't even vote because they didn't care or were unaware. So if you want to blame someone for no esf, don't group everyone together because I was one of the ones who voted for an esf. I voiced my opinion to Dutch powers but this is what happens when you have a democracy lol.

Anyways, the reason dutch/French side usualy win is not because pvpers tie up english side... It is because we have more people in general playing on our side. So maybe you should recruit new players to join instead of complaining about the incorrect statement you made.

If you want sportsmanship and bring in Naver to support your side... How about using single fleets to farm npcs? How about pvpers farming newbies? This happened so much during the early esfs. Where is the sportsmanship in that? As far as I know, the English side did more of that than Dutch. Some have even used the exploit to switch the ship of an alt so they cannot be attacked.

Someone using twisted facts to an argument. Sounds very familiar.

If this observe button was so unsportsmanlike, i wish the GM and Koei can remove it from the game. But wait... Wuxu hasnt even been nerfed yet. Oh well.

simcarper · August 2019

Before I go on,im not going to saddle the cancelled ESF on all dutch backs. Participation is a choice,yes. Another choice would have been to let the vote go ahead and those that wanted to take part could do so and those that didn't could sit out? From what I heard,a number of dutch wanted to take part but that option was taken away by a few who thought the best decision for the Netherlands was to cancel ESF all together. Not everyone who takes part in ESF are here playing on a daily basis and can only find the time to play working around real life commitments. A few make plans to be here days before hand so they can take part in ESF or pvp events. As it is,maritime events are virtually none existent on maris and ESF is the only outlet we have for a large portion of the server to come together on a monthly basis. And not just maritimers,adventurers and traders all of which can gain something from ESF in one form or another. I'll also echo the concerns of future ESF's and hope this wont be an occurring theme because people will quit the one event that binds countries and players.

purplepirate · August 2019

@wsp414 Thanks wsp for your response and honesty on this matter. As you are i Dutch player, I respect your feedback on this path. I know that not everyone's opinion was reflected in the final vote and I'm not using "twisted facts" to support my argument. Most people playing UWO as trader/adventurer won't overtly be affected by the event. Traders more since the outcome can affect their trade influence on the world market to what ports they can influence. Adventurer's probably the least. But those people DON'T vote usually for ESF because it doesn't affect their game alot, mostly it's the Maritimer's that are the voting force. So this means that the overall choice was based on a small percentage of players manipulating the game mechanics. As I stated "good strategy, but poor sportsmanship". I'm truly sorry that your vote didn't count for anything :/

As for some of the points you made, one fact you state has supported my argument about the truth behind this...

Anyways, the reason dutch/French side usualy win is not because pvpers
tie up english side... It is because we have more people in general
playing on our side.

I know that you are a regular participant in ESF events since we encounter each other regularly. So when you say dutch/french team usually win, that implies that Spain is with English in some fashion but yet you still win? so what's the problem then? If it would end up as english/spanish team up but you are that confident and win all the time, then what's the problem? Why NO ESF? Like i said this is clearly 'poor sportsmanship' of a few. For the reasons I listed in my original post, I feel it was for selfish reasons.

If you want sportsmanship and bring in Naver to support your side... How
about using single fleets to farm npcs? How about pvpers farming
newbies? This happened so much during the early esfs. Where is the
sportsmanship in that? As far as I know, the English side did more of
that than Dutch.

Every team uses tactics to get ahead, some ethical and some unethical. As much as we want to represent our nation in a certain light, but we can't account for every individual ideals which is the sad truth here. As you argue about english farming newbies in the early days..How about pvpers farming newbies? This happened so much during the early esfs. Point is you even said "the early days" but not now? So the English don't do it anymore?(probably cause you guys number us more often then not). Most people will attack a lesser fleet if the opportunity comes up but like Ranger's argument about pirates, the game gives ways to defend your self against it.

1) Don't repair after battle, stay sunk until aggressors get bored and leave.

2) Disband and regroup at the nearest port

3)call HQ after battle and head for port (not guaranteed).

I can complain over the fact over your ally Spain spamming "Navy dispatch" in pvp during the last ESF and even after we complained about it you dutch didn't do anything about it but I didn't. My argument isn't about in game tactics (you have to adapt to any situation in battle), it's about not even being given a chance to win or loose without penalty. IN GAME tactics are one thing, but where is it suppose to end?

If the whole point is to co-opperatively try and build this game up again instead of complaining about everything and pineing over 'the day's of old', we have an opportunity here to really build up this game again but always keeping this game flowing and interesting, especially for new players (esf is a platform for new players to try out maritime). What of the new players that were looking forward to this ESF to tryout some of their hard grinded skills and monies spend gear/ships? "Oh sorry 'maybe' next month you can justify your time here in the game" lol. Did everyone forget all the negative talk back in the early days of Maris where everyone was saying how maritime was dead and the game became stagnant last year? Win or loose, many of us still continually support events like this for many reasons more than our own. Good on you though for voting for ESF :)

wsp414 · August 2019

"Most people playing UWO as trader/adventurer won't overtly be affected by the event. Traders more since the outcome can affect their trade influence on the world market to what ports they can influence. Adventurer's probably the least. But those people DON'T vote usually for ESF because it doesn't affect their game alot, mostly it's the Maritimer's that are the voting force. So this means that the overall choice was based on a small percentage of players manipulating the game mechanics. As I stated "good strategy, but poor sportsmanship". I'm truly sorry that your vote didn't count for anything :/"

I do agree with you that there is a misconception regarding ESF is only for maritimers. Every time I encounter this remark on world chat (all) I do my best to convince people it is much more than just pvp, but it falls on deaf ears most of the time. I would be fine giving up pvp if I can get 4 new players to join me in an esf fleet next time. How else can we promote one of the most fun aspects of this game. But yes, I really think the lack of an esf this month hurts the game more than anything.

"I know that you are a regular participant in ESF events since we encounter each other regularly. So when you say dutch/french team usually win, that implies that Spain is with English in some fashion but yet you still win? so what's the problem then? If it would end up as english/spanish team up but you are that confident and win all the time, then what's the problem? Why NO ESF? Like i said this is clearly 'poor sportsmanship' of a few. For the reasons I listed in my original post, I feel it was for selfish reasons."

Spanish is usually free mercenary, and they allied with Dutch mostly for the fact that they can PVP with Anima. Unfortunately, there aren't any other strong Spanish players, so it does seem like Spain is allied with Dutch. I will give you that and the selfish reason xD

I can complain over the fact over your ally Spain spamming "Navy dispatch" in pvp during the last ESF and even after we complained about it you dutch didn't do anything about it but I didn't. My argument isn't about in game tactics (you have to adapt to any situation in battle), it's about not even being given a chance to win or loose without penalty. IN GAME tactics are one thing, but where is it suppose to end?

This was pretty funny to watch as I sailed past, and am sorry that happened. I hope this doesn't happen again.

If the whole point is to co-opperatively try and build this game up again instead of complaining about everything and pineing over 'the day's of old', we have an opportunity here to really build up this game again but always keeping this game flowing and interesting, especially for new players (esf is a platform for new players to try out maritime). What of the new players that were looking forward to this ESF to tryout some of their hard grinded skills and monies spend gear/ships? "Oh sorry 'maybe' next month you can justify your time here in the game" lol. Did everyone forget all the negative talk back in the early days of Maris where everyone was saying how maritime was dead and the game became stagnant last year? Win or loose, many of us still continually support events like this for many reasons more than our own. Good on you though for voting for ESF :)

Agree as I said befoore I would be happy to take new players in an ESF fleet. It was how I started on GAMA too when Gazi welcomed me into his fleet. Eventually after no one took an interest in me I stopped doing ESF on GAMA to do other stuff, so I understand why people wouldn't try it out. Hope we can get more new players to join.

Well until next month's esf...

Whitejacket · August 2019

I was quite surprised myself that the Dutch voted for no ESF. Usually they are out in full force. I wish Venice had as many maritimers as the Dutch!

Despite how we may feel about it, it's a mechanic of gameplay and they are entitled to vote how they want to. I was hoping for an ESF myself, but I guess I'll have to wait.

Personally I think that there should be no "no ESF option" (in other words if you vote you MUST vote for a city) and if no votes are cast or a tie then the decision is made by some mechanic. This way, the aggressor is forced to be in the ESF and any who want to join for the glory of their country can do so.

purplepirate · August 2019

@wsp414 Yes we'll have to wait for next esf now. But I want to be clear on a few of your points especially since they actually support what my main point was in this thread as I believe I've been truthful and not twisted any facts.

First off, I want it to be known that like you, I am just one person when it comes to voting and since I'm not in Anima (I'm actually in a Dutch company lol), I have to go with what ever the vote ends up (many times, I wanted to attack a different nation but had to go with the majority). Truth be told though, mostly it's not a major issue with me since i'm just happy to be able to play, but when the decision is 'English' I have to stand by it or not play. This is why I 'generalized' everyone into one nation's choice. I know that it didn't reflect everyone's choice but except for a small handful of you, I didn't know who voted what way so I didn't want to use anyone's names for this reason.

As for what you said about Naver. I didn't actually use him to support my case as I never directly compared him to any of you. It was more of a story about someone who, even though his ethics were questioned by most on the server, he still followed though with an event knowing that it was a loosing situation. This I'd call being a 'good sport' about a bad situation since everyone got to play and had their fun. I certainly didn't use him or that esf to say that you guys used 'dirty tactics' in battle like you implied. I can't account for every individual's play style anymore than you can. I only used that particular ESF as an example of 'overwhelming odds' and that win or loose, life goes on in UWO. Naver just happened to be the 'self appointed' leader of Venice at that time and was voiceful about it lol.

When I speak of farming npc and 'tying up fleets', you have explained how this is done.. First off you admit that you guys have more people which is true (we're outnumbered most of the time) " the reason dutch/French side usualy win is not because pvpers tie up english side.It is because we have more people in general playing on our side.". That's fine, we still play and do what we can, but then you state "Spanish is usually free mercenary, and they allied with Dutch mostly for the fact that they can PVP with Anima.". So in your own words the spanish spend their time battling Anima (the main core of our english pvpers). This is also true as I've gotten frustrated many times that they spend so much of their time fighting eachother and it's difficult to get into their battles lol. So that being said, what are the french/dutch doing during this time? They are farming npc's mostly and doing sabo runs, this is why you guys get so many points compared to us (you're certainly NOT getting high points from spanish and english fleets fights!). Since you have more players then logically, you have the npc farming advantage over us with fewer players. So I haven't twisted any facts here, I'm speaking the truth, you just didn't like the truth of it that's all.

The main point of this thread was that I feel the decision to cancel the ESF was Poor Sportsmanship. You even said that the decision was 60:40. This means that almost half of you still wanted to play, so if a portion of the Dutch didn't like the odds of a spanish/english potential alliance then they could've just sat out but let you guys do what you could, even if you lost the Dutch can afford it. At least everyone would've still had their fun and as i stated, there was no guarantee that there would've even been a big turnout anyways. If the spanish didn't want to fight the dutch then they just wouldn't show and the dutch/french alliance would've prevailed anyways according to your arguments. The people who voted against it didn't like the potential pvp outcome of a spanish/english alliance since it meant a possible loss, so instead of taking a potential loss they just voted to cancel for everyone. This is great strategy, but very bad sportsmanship since it was a reflection of only a few people on the server. I haven't twisted any facts here, this is the truth.

My main hope is that this kind of 'strategy' won't become the norm as a way for a nation to stay ahead of the other countries on the world stats. UWO shouldn't be all about any 'one' country and everyone should have a chance to rank. If a nation wants to 'forfeit' their turn as aggressor then some penalty should affect that nation in some way for the month, especially if the vote was so closely split as you said. Thanks for trying for ESF anyways...

CrzyPsycoChick · August 2019

Personally I like the Dutch decision to cancel ESF. Imo it's actions like this that fuel the game. Ok I'm going to go old school and say this but back in the old days whenever a nation or company did something others didn't like they became a target , put bounties on their heads or nations banded together to invest and remove their ports or raised prices or boycotted that nation.

The point I'm making is... Controversy fuels the game if the Dutch did this don't get mad get even and work together to pay them back. That competition and drive to best others is what makes the game fun. Back in the day I used to pay people money to sit out rounds of ESF so Spain could win heh heh lol. It pissed off a lot of people and it made Spain hated and people would try to chase my Company members and sink any spanish ships but in the process sparked activity and conflict but it was oodles of FUN lol.

Maybe the game has changed since I last played but I just think everyone should not shame the Dutch but rather SHOW the Dutch or any other nation the consequences of canceling ESF... through violence and sabotage just like the old days >:)

purplepirate · August 2019

@CPC Ok I'm going to go old school and say this but back in the old days...

Yes I can appreciate this and I even gave praise saying it was "good strategy" but... This is not the old days, the server isn't what it used to be. The server doesn't have the population or event turnout that ESF once had and there are so few maritime events left where everyone can come together as a community to do events anymore. Most importantly it was stated...

@simcarper Not
everyone who takes part in ESF are here playing on a daily basis and
can only find the time to play working around real life commitments. A
few make plans to be here days before hand so they can take part in ESF
or pvp events.

This is critical as many whom are left here are older now and just want to play, not get caught up in "In game drama and politics that a FEW players have between eachother". Is it fair that they should get dragged into issues like this? Like I said, did everyone forget everyone complaining that maritime was dead and UWO was failing? This is an example of that. Again we are suppose to be working together to build this game up again not destroy it though PETTY conflicts between individual players. This is clearly an act of selfish intent and poor sportsmanship.

purplepirate · August 2019

@CPC Had to run out to work earlier so I just gave a quick response but I wanted to explore some of your suggestions. One of the things I always liked about your posts is that you always have stories of life in pre-Maris UWO lol. I missed most of those days since i didn't join OGP until the end of 2015.

Your ideas about seeking revenge are interesting and I can see how it would have made for "fuel for the game" back when Gamma was at it's height. On Maris though, the maritime (and overall server) community is much smaller and time constraint, things like that aren't practical now. The game doesn't need fuel as much as it needs 'sustainability' now. We need these regular events like ESF to build up interest for newer players to participate in an environment that they can enjoy (BC is good to but mostly occupied with seasoned pvp'ers, and I think many people believe that EPF is only for pirates).

Revenge just doesn't have a place here really, and is really just a show of pettiness vs. pettiness since it to would only reflect the view of a very few. As wsp pointed out, the vote was 60/40 so that's means that almost half were against the action. How and why would anyone want to seek revenge against that since it wasn't unanimous? Plus, you can't determine who voted which way to even know in it's entirety who did what since there's no list that shows who voted. Now you can't account for everyone's actions but I know 'revenge' has no place with me since I have friends in the Dutch.

I think many people don't care if ESF went on or not since most people don't vote due to the fact that they mostly play traders/adventurer's. Strangely enough though, trader's can have a major impact on where their country fights by voting for an area that they want to financially take over. Rangerfan ironically said it best...

@rangerzfan Even England can outvote its Martime players

So traders don't even have to participate in the esf but can use their country's fleet to take over towns for them to invest in! lol More traders should do this and vote, but I doubt many do. It's pretty funny though when you think about it xD.

As for 'putting bounties' on people's heads. I'm a little confused on how this would work since you can't sink another player without turning red/orange. The only profession that can 'track' a player is a bounty hunter registering a red/orange player. I can see it if the game population had a huge player base and you had a large communication network setup with your FL but even still how do you sink him without turning red/orange? I know that back then there were alot more pirates around largely due to PAC but if a person doesn't want to turn then what? Even still something like this isn't practical now.

As much as i like your stories from back in those days and watch vids of the massive battles on ytube, the game has changed from then. Old ways have changed as the people have. But since EPF has kinda died for now, I don't want to see the same thing happen to ESF. This is why despite the odds or personal issues can't get in the way of the 'bigger' picture that is UWO.

GIRL, YOU NEED TO GET YET BUTT BACK IN THE GAME!!! xD

lefox271 · August 2019

"This is why despite the odds or personal issues can't get in the way of the 'bigger' picture that is UWO."

@pp I think your last sentence says it all. UWO needs community events not self-interested manipulation.

It would be interesting to know how many people actually vote each month.

Sometimes Maritimers can be their own worst enemy!

purplepirate · August 2019

@lefox271 what makes this worse is the fact that people use alts, so its even possible the vote was 'enchanced' to make sure it didn't happen since theres no list.

:(

carlalex · August 2019

I am one of the Dutch who voted NO - dont tell me why I did that.

Noone told me how to vote - noone discussed it with me - I saw nobody discussing it.

So how could this be a deliberate strategy to preserve Dutch power ?

When I went to vote the real choice was between observing or one target port that wouldnt make the esf interesting to me. There were other ports I would have been happy to fight over, but none of them were real options at the time. Had there not been a running tally of votes I would have voted for one of them rather than to observe.

Essentially I voted no because I would rather have an early thanksgiving festival than an esf over a port I had no interest in.

purplepirate · August 2019

@carlalex Noone told me how to vote - noone discussed it with me - I saw nobody discussing it.

So how could this be a deliberate strategy to preserve Dutch power ?

Thx for your reply carlalex, it's good to hear from another dutch player, but i have to ask if you are a pvp or pve player. I ask this for various reasons. Apart from the fact that I don't see you in pvp circles, you seem very disconnected with the dutch pvp'ers. Now ESF is not just for pvp'ers, it's also for everyone else as there's many non pvp tasks that can be completed in the event and everyone can benefit from the rewards. The root of this thread does focus around the 'pvp' side of the ESF, both in participants and reasons for it's cancellation. Did you actually read the whole thread including peoples' input and responses to them? wsp himself, a dutch PVP'er even said there was a discussion.

A discussion doesn't necessarily mean there's a 'group meeting' about it with everyone. It also means a communication network between multiple individuals involved in a single basis (I'll explain why you weren't part of it in a min). Currently in the game, it's the pvp'ers that are the primary participants and voters when it comes to this event. The core of my reasons came from the dutch upper hierarchy back at the beginning of the voting period and my failure to convince them to not pursue this path. Wsp also tried to convince them from a dutch perspective but also failed (read the whole thread!).

Now when it comes to your vote, you're what I call a 'floater' when it comes to voting. Or in other words, it wouldn't have mattered how you voted the end result would've been the same. The choices were set before you even voted...

When I went to vote the real choice was between observing or one target port that wouldnt make the esf interesting to me.

So you really had no choice in the matter and it was completely pointless for you to have voted at all. Because you are not part of the pvp community you were not given a choice. It wouldn't matter if you played or not to them, good on you though if you do play. The fact that you wanted to play but weren't given a choice shows this...

There were other ports I would have been happy to fight over, but none
of them were real options at the time. Had there not been a running
tally of votes I would have voted for one of them rather than to
observe.

I don't even vote anymore when it comes up mostly because I don't really care where we attack (defend) as long as we get to play. Point is, why would you even bother to vote for if you were just going to vote 'observe'? Observe means you you don't play so why bother? It's because you are a 'floater' and just go with the flow. Part of voting tactics relies on this from a portion of players who 'aren't sure' what to do so they just support what ever the majority is regardless of the consequences.

It really doesn't matter now anyways, what's done is done and I have been assured but the dutch hierarchy that it won't happen again. However, because you can't account for everyone's actions, no one can say that another country won't adopt a similar tactic next time their turn comes up and they don't like the odds. This was another reason for my thread, because of what this could mean for the future of ESF. I don't want to see this becoming the norm as it would kill people's reliability and faith on these supposed regular events.

GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! All the answers are there from the various inputs that people have given and if you are still unsure about anything, i'll be happy to fill in the blanks to the best of my knowledge. Hope to see you out for the next ESF...

WesDoobner · August 2019

I was going to say that those netherlanders are some really rotten motherfuckers, but poor sports works also. No wonder they've been condemned to living in the nether regions.

Oberrill · August 2019

As a Netherlands player, I did not vote. I never do. I care not at all about ESF. Maritime in this game is so ridiculous with junk like AoS, seals, mines that the dropper can hit without taking damage, etc, that I do not maritime. I really do not care which country controls a port. Make a few more ducats per trade at a Netherlands controlled port? Who cares.

WesDoobner · August 2019

Nothing wrong with not voting, you choice. But voting to observe is actively trying to deprive others of something because you don't want to do it. Generally people on UWO try to be helpful to each other, so that seems to go against the grain bigtime, and kinda counteracts all the good karma built up from netherlanders helping people with quests and other stuff. I guess we're even. :(

Jayburner · August 2019

HOLY WALL OF TEXT!

but I totally agree with everything PurplePirate said. Man up! dutch players.

fields1234 · August 2019

I always kept forgetting to vote on ESF's but I found this a intresting read.

I always thought ESFs were gurenteed monthly events I cannot say I seen a ESF cancelled before apart from the glitch one.

I personally when I was playing didn't do ESFs apart from maybe once or twice when I was doing UWO videos. But I usually took advantage of knowing most pirates would be there battleing it out and do nanban runs most of that time.

THing is when I was playing activly I know a lot of players were loving ESF each month and actually wanted it twice monthly, such as a demand of the ESFs I'm really surprised "observe" option was implemented.

purplepirate · August 2019

@fields1234 THing is when I was playing activly I know a lot of
players were loving ESF each month and actually wanted it twice monthly,
such as a demand of the ESFs I'm really surprised "observe" option was
implemented.

The thing is, the 'observe' option doesn't even make sense. Each of the 6 nations have a 'king', a NPC character that everyone can find in their nation palace. When a nation is the aggressor, it's that nation's king that has called for war against another country not the players! It's up to the player to decide where they want to attack, but when war is declared, you have to go, therefore ESF should happen one way or another. In history, when a king declared war he couldn't be 'out voted' by his subjects to not go. Sure the game gives the option to participate or not, but either way the ESF should happen. The players in the game are 'subjects' to their countries not the rulers! Observe option doesn't make sense...

carlalex · August 2019

@ purplepirat Maybe you should read up on some history.

For a lot of the time period covered by UWO, the Netherlands were either a republic or a constitutional monarchy.

Same for England.

Venice was a republic until 1797 and then ceased to exist.

Most monarchs in European history were not Absolute monarchs that could rule as they pleased without answering to anyone.

miyamoto · August 2019

Blah Blah Blah......

JUST PLAY.

WalkerDePlank1 · September 2019

Well, I told myself, do not get involved in this debate. However, I have stepped back quiet a bit on this server and decided to just stick with adventure, helping new players, and not join in the ESF for many reasons.

I enjoying my time now, even though I was never a good maritime player, I nevertheless enjoyed the fun of ESF.

ESF during NetMarble was fun as hell, one reason why, not matter who's side we played with, we were all friends and had a good laugh. What ever happen to those days?

If this game is going to survive, we need to get back to civility and stop with the pity parties, the anger and the politics. Let the chips fall where they may. Win one Lose one, who cares!!!

People having anger with others or situations just continue to fester their personal animosities and become a negative influence seeking people who feel the way they do and continue the stupid patterns. That has to stop. Last I checked, we are 98% adults playing this game. so If you have anger or animosities, take a break from the game or do something you do not usually do in game, trust me, it worked for me.

I get called a "Dictator" for making people stick to the rules of decency in the Facebook Fan group. So be it, we have enough drama in this world without dragging it into a GAME that is suppose to be a diversion from our real lives.

Learn to have fun again!!!

purplepirate · September 2019

@carlalex constitutional monarchy

What does that have to do with anything? I didn't say anything about 'absolute' rule, whether a nation has a sole decision or acts within a constitution doesn't change the fact that nations went to war against each other (read your history about the wars in those centuries). Not all the nations represented in this game ruled in this kind of system but you can't have different conditions for each country so the game generalizes everything. Even in the palace, it's a royal representative that you talk to but they still act on behalf of the Monarch. The whole idea of having your turn as aggressor is because that nation wants to go to war whether is by sole monarch rule or a constitutional monarch it doesn't matter.

The whole point i made in this thread (if you actually read it) was that if an aggressor is going to opt out then there should be some penalty against that nation for the month. The voting system is based around the idea of contributing to nation choices but it's distorted as anyone can vote instead of just a parlament. Most people in those days weren't even educated to even understand about politics which is why common folk weren't involved in country decisions, it was the Monarchs acting either under court advisors or justifying their laws in parlament to go to war for the betterment of the country. If you don't want to take the benefits of taking over others territories and want to be passive then some penalty should apply. As the system is set up now, a nation can keep doing this action without any penalty, this is an exploitable loophole in the game that a few people using alts can manipulate which is why there should be some negative if an aggressor balks out of going to war.

CrzyPsycoChick · September 2019

Just my opinion

1. I dont remember everyone all being friends just laughing and saying sharing GG's and good will with one another back in the day must've been a different UWO I was playing i must have downloaded a bootleg copy lol.

2. The controversial players were the MOST famous players as well as who brought the most interest into the game The Ezios, Vikings, PAC's, Hughes DePayens, Lodian, SeaLegions, Nellemus, CPC's, Pirates and Navers. Love em or hate em...they put the butts in the seats and made people get out and fight.

3. Corduality is a beautiful thing but its the darkness that makes the bright days seem brighter. Light cannot exist without shadow. You need a balance at least to me I think if its too goody goody the game becomes boring, Vanilla and monotonous when its too drama filled it can become harmful when its kept in balance I think its the optimal.

4. Not saying people shouldnt be nice to one another they absolutely should but lets not even pretend that the "rivalries, and competitiveness" had 0 role in making this game popular. Without it this game would have died long ago. Take for instance http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/366062/pvp-trial-period-unlimited-battles-on-seas-closed/p1 remember this forum? for the changing the piracy rules that created an uproar is the MOST viewed forum on papaya...controversy sells IN MODERATION.

5. Lastly this is just my opinion

@Purplepirate

Hey no offense taken at all :) I just came from an age of the game that was different. The company Sea legion Set up a blockade of anyone passing under africa and unless you were English or had blue flag they were attacked on site this led to other nations forming fleets to break up the naval blockade....that kind of stuff seems fun and interesting to me. See the coolest part of the game isnt just using in game mechanics...Its using creativity to create new things with in game mechanics and the more controversial the more people crave it. A naval blockade is ingenious imo and if other nations did it to the dutch it would send a big statement to everyone considering being a spectator in future ESF events...if you do it the community will rise against you and attack your nation or make blockades no exceptions but its all in good fun.

I love that the game has more order now but that coca cola just doesn't taste quite right until you add a lil rum to it. >;-)

Again JUST my opinion. No offense intended for any player here just my opinion or discrediting anyone else's opinion just saying how i feel no offense guys AND girls! :D

WalkerDePlank1 · September 2019

CrzyPsycoChick - Yes, it was exactly as I said above. I do not remember you at all back in those days.

CrzyPsycoChick · September 2019

Must have happened prior to when I started late in netmarble. I've never seen the UWO utopia you speak of wish I had the chance to experience it like you have must have been nice sigh lol

No ESF = Poor Sportsmanship

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