Did PapayaPlay really "Fixed" the game economy?

hoxtonbegins · November 2017

Server wipe was to rid the in game world of pre-existing ships and items, so that papaya could resell said ships and items in the cash shop.

Why let all the nice stuff accumulated over several years float around and change hands? you don't, not if you want more people buying UWC.

Alt fleets are still a thing and always will be, SEA is opened and the economy rape is just beggining.

East Asia will begin the gold fleets all over, but then it was never about equalizing the economy, it was about fast bucks, which judging by all the mod clippers and custom vaiss around, worked to a tea.

You now have 2 distinct player classes, the UWC spamming hopefuls, and the weary lifers.

and for the record, i have the max founder awards, have not cashed a cheque, or used a booster yet, i am 45/20/11, it is hard work but the game always was.

Go buy the cash ships, then marvel at how you can't even mod them as the dev in the towns to make the parts is 0. Then revel in your frustration as nobody invests or works as a team to bring the WHOLE hidden economy that was established by the veterans back up to par.

Oh this will be a looooooong game indeed.

jest11 · November 2017

The reset was meant to fix the economy.

Lerxst · November 2017

Fact is, Papaya injected billions of Ducats into the game before they even started the server - Founder Packs. One vet with a 500 mil account and 2 alts with 200 mil equals almost a billion ducats - and that's just a modest assumption.

900 mil in the bank and those same people talk about how the economy "will balance out" or "has improved" citing pre-wipe prices. These people don't have to scrape by with school Quests and European trade runs in order to build up their nest eggs. Instead, they cash a cheque for easy money and then bitch about hot nobody is doing any of the IQs or opening any ports.

The most they have to worry about is time; the time to sail or time to grind a skill. Ship Building, for instance isn't just a tedious process, it was supposed to be a cost-prohibitive process. Losing 10k+ per build is not something you do in the early weeks of the game. Investing in ports, for that 300k bonus item, also isn't something newbie traders do in the first month of the game.

School quests pay 10-20k. Even the more profitable feather plucking only pays 100k an hour or so. Spice Trading, in your school ships, only rakes in about 1-2 mil every 90 minutes if lucky. You don't do IQs this early because you simply don't have the resources to spare. If you do sail any long distance, you do so in a ship with a small cargo hold, that can barely turn a profit vs. the risk of the trip.

Those were HUGE profits for this early stage of the game, for the first couple months, at least.

Now, people have minimal level, fast, large hold, cash shop ships speeding to Calicut within days of the server restart. They don't even do it for money, these people are doing it for skill grind; a grind that would have been unheard of if the server truly did "restart" from the absolute start.

Most of the player base now, looks more like a bunch of rich, spoiled kids, driving BMWs,complaining about not receiving their next month's of Food Stamps (UWC) in the mail yet.

Lerxst · November 2017

I will also add, that i didn't start the game with any of my Founders Rewards, but am already leaps and bounds ahead of where I should be. Why? Because those spoiled "rich kids" throw out millions of ducats worth of gear the second it gets dented. I sold off dozens of Reward items - iron plates, master cannons, etc, for millions of ducats.

My means of scraping by in this game to get to the point I have, shouldn't even be possible yet. Hell, I've sold rare "Searched" items for millions, just because people have too much money already.

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

Goods worth a lot that newbies can do without cargo

Mysterious spice = purchased 10k each sold 25-50k in Seville 999x in bank vault 400x cap bag 999x company shop , 999x quarters 3400x in total

Miser chains= purchased 10k each sold 25-50k in Seville 999x in bank vault 400x cap bag 999x company shop , 999x quarters 3400x in total

Master tailoring tools= 5mil each requires NO cargo just inventory space need r1 to R20 appraisal r1 to R20 unlock search r1

Lumber = sold 20k to 50k in Seville

Berries =easily procured r1 procurement sold 20k to 30k each

Tuna= 60k each R8 fishing gibraltar can get to rank 8 in 2 hours fishing with SIMPLE oxford

Fish = 2 to 5k each

Seafood pizza book chef meat book 5mil

Oysters collect bay of biscay worth 10 to 20k each

Seafood grill easy and free to make worth 100k each

Museum exhibits 10mil and UP even for most basic easy ones to get culture points

Brooms ship hammer sae: 20 to 30mil EACH even at low search in 4 hours can get about 2 to 3 90mil easy

Pasta book 3mil Venice

Shrimps 2 to 5k each possibly 10 collection

I could go on and on and on

Never touched founder rewards or paid real money the money is out there if you go after it

Oh btw just 400 cargo from simply towing to India is 60mil at not bad for a newbie you don't even need permit just ask someone to fill you up.

Theres really no excuse unless you dont put in effort in takes more effort to sit on forum and complain when could be out getting money

lefox271 · November 2017

@Lerxst

It doesn't have to be about money anyway. Like I said before I've not touched my founders rewards - not so much as a ducat or a tiny exp boost.

My two characters have just under 10mil between them.

I'm just enjoying myself playing my game. I don't feel the need to be judged by other people's values. You don't have to keep up with the 'rich kids' to enjoy it.

Belogard · November 2017

CPC pretending to understand economics....funny. I couldn't decide whether to do Halloween as a banker or a pantomime banker! MMO economies are clip joints. It's like a ten dollar cup of coffee in NYC. It's not whether the item is worth the money. It's if the money is worth anything at all.

When you find yourself paying billions of in-game currency for even the top end items, your economy is wildly out of control. People may wish to rationalize it as "charge what you can get," but those who do ruin the game period (not just for "others") because they devalue their own currency in the process.

The problem has never been the prices are too high. It's always the money's value is non-existent. Any game management can control top-end pricing by capping currency amounts. If the game doesn't register a billion, you can't charge billions. Controlling inflation has to do with removing money from the game at a rate commensurate with how it's put into the game.

Controlling greedy mofos is a disciplinary action. If management isn't doing it, then they're permitting (even if tacitly) the behavior. One way they can HONESTLY offset the greed, if they won't use any other means, is to make payouts for PvE activities in the hundreds of millions. If everybody's got billions, then charging billions isn't charging a lot. However, at this point it gets ridiculous.

If you're catering to the mentality that now wants TRILLIONS, then you're really in the wrong business and should try joining a mental institution - as a resident. Just because a New Yorker will pay a hundred billion for a one room apartment doesn't make a one room apartment worth a billion, or the renter an economic genius.

Juuuuuuuuuust sayin'.

Belogard · November 2017

MMO economies are clip joints. Listening to people who create the market tell you how fair and natural it is, and you're just looking at it wrong is the same as paying to see the "mermaid" (Barbie doll in a salted fish). Game management can correct this, but they're not really sure if it'll drive people away or not. The less effort a management puts into its market overall, the less they care about how into absurdity it gets.

Trying to pretend it's normal, and all you need do is make practical decisions is ludicrous. Though, there are terminal optimists out there, it all comes down to the math - not the attitude.

CPC pretending to understand economics. I couldn't decide whether to do Halloween as a banker, or a stand up comedian (that posts on forums.)

theedgedemon · November 2017

@Lerxst

Fact is, Papaya injected billions of Ducats into the game before they even started the server - Founder Packs. One vet with a 500 mil account and 2 alts with 200 mil equals almost a billion ducats - and that's just a modest assumption.

that is true, which is unusual for your track record, and it is the main drive into ths insane economy the other being the badly planned rush to 60 event.

School quests pay 10-20k. Even the more profitable feather plucking only pays 100k an hour or so. Spice Trading, in your school ships, only rakes in about 1-2 mil every 90 minutes if lucky. You don't do IQs this early because you simply don't have the resources to spare. If you do sail any long distance, you do so in a ship with a small cargo hold, that can barely turn a profit vs. the risk of the trip.

That however is as false as a house.

spice trading with grad sambuk hauling your aide in the grad polaca is around 600 cargo selling to other players in seville thats 600 * 60-200k

that is anywhere from a conservative 36 millions to the exploitative 120 millions in a 2 hour trip.

with crafting, i grind my casting to r12 on hamburg, the process couldn't be simpler:

buying iron ore, lead ore, tin and cooper ore for bronze and coal.
sail to bremen just next door
use casting to turn lead ore into lead, iron ore into iron, iron + coal into firearms, cooper and tin into bronze and handicraft to make bronze statues
sell in bremen for 100-200k net profit, total time is around 5 mins selling directly to the npc and without traveling far.

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

Boy BYE.

First of all just because things are worth billions doesn't mean the entire economy is out of wack

Second limiting how much we can hold does NOT Stop prices going up we are limited to 22.2 bil per character but prices on certain things farrrrrrr exceed that 80bil and up. Or people asked for ships in addition to the checks to cover balances the price didn't go down just method payment was changed

Third the price is determined by supply and demand if a good is demand and the supply isn't there the price goes up is funny even with spice at 150k because nanban isn't open people seem to not see that its baffling. If more turns up at Port the price will go down

Fourth the one true thing you said was the value of money changes but its still in line with supply and demand if everyone make 30mil in 5 mins prices go up of course but the value remained the same. The problem is money come in too easy a game mechanic not an economy issue

Lastly I don't pretend to know economics post your college transcript(Direct Screenshots ofc) of your grades in microeconomics ,macroeconomics ,accounting business and international business and ill post mines and we can determine who's the pretender here. I'm a flawed person like everyone else but stupid isn't something used to describe

let our economy even out and focus on the Real issue gameplay mechanics.

THawk420 · November 2017

CPC defending the in game economy i the only red flag anyone should need to know UWO is in trouble, this is after all someone that will feed you a price on things based on the highest its ever sold

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

You can say that but my fellow Sevillians aren't complaining only you guys... We lost everything just like you...yet we bounced back just fine.

I mean you're entitled to your opinion I respect it but you blame the economy we blame the people who don't adapt to it especially with so much opportunity to profit available to you selling 150k spice is unheard of yet people still can't seem to profit even nanban wasn't selling that high.

For your theory to be true even the Sevillians should be failing in the economy but since we're not...I think the problem lies in the mirror not the free market.

Sevillian mindset: prices are high well I'll make it myself and drive them out of business or I'll sell a high value good to afford it ie 120k spice

Other mindset: prices are high... since I can't afford it the entire economy must be broken and im not going to do anything about it to adapt or compete just complain suffer and blame everyone but myself

See the difference...ask yourself why am I the only ones not making it while others are in the SAME Environment as me?

aceman39 · November 2017

Well CPC the next thing you know somewhere along the line in this post will the next is alts are ruining the economy as they said in other post. There is many different ways to make game money as you said. Pick a crafting or handicrafts or sewing rank the skill then you can make money selling what you make and stop crying about stuff you can work to make the money you need to buy things

Lerxst · November 2017

@theedgedemon All of that last argument fails the one MAJOR check- you SELL TO A PLAYER.

If a player has hundreds of millions sitting in a bank, they'll pay stupid prices for everything - I sell stacks of 100 ore for 1000% mark-up and people will buy it. Sell that spice to the Market for trade exp and fame, the way the game was designed. Now tell me how much money you just made...

Those 30k-100k player Spice prices = inflation.

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

That's not inflation

Inflation: a general increase in prices AND fall in the purchasing value of money.

the purchasing value of your money did not fall just certain goods you want are in short supply therefore the price increased. This constant up and down in prices is normal the "game" if you will is how you the player adpats to it as well as other players . You sell iron ore at 1000% markup GOOD That's one way to adapt until another sells at 500% to compete with you and then 200% until the profit no longer makes it worth it then people move on to selling another good the supply goes down and prices go back up and the cycle repeats again.

THAT'S THE GAME Lmao. Everyone complaining should eliminate the word economy and inflation from their vocabulary

Instead replace it with supply and demand and competition once you do this you will see all these "alleged" broken economy problems disappear

SUPPLY DEMAND COMPETITION That's all you really need to know

Belogard · November 2017

This isn't the normal economy CPC. There are no sanctions, or legal means of keeping a lid on things. Price gouging, and fixing prices are against the law and have prison terms. This is to ensure prices are fixed as much as can be by supply and demand. MMOs don't employ legal restrictions so your MYTH (CPC) of "supply and demand" only flies in your imagination, or that of those you've managed to convince by your assertions.

There is no DOWN in the ship prices ("ups and downs"). Never has been. Only UPS. Always has been that way. LYAO all you want, anyone who takes CPC's advice on economics needs to take my advice on hair styling. (I rock at this. Just ask me.) But, I know you, CPC. Facts have never bothered you, and they won't start now. TO OTHERS READING ALONG . . . I decided to go Halloween as a hair dresser, and GREED sets prices in UWO, not "SUPPLY AND DEMAND COMPETITION" (a term CPC pulled out of his/her @$$.....uh.....oopsy!)

THawk420 · November 2017

his*

Lerxst · November 2017

For all the naysayers - there were and are cash-sinks in this game. There are places and things that can only be unlocked with investments and development that takes a lot of ducats and time. A 300k investment isn't chump change when the quests reward 50k for 20 minutes of work. Spending 10k on experienced crew and supplies is an actual cost when you also run those quests, or only stand to make 50k in profit from a trade route.

By the time you reach the point of making a few million on a spice run, the risks of doing that route to India is very real and could easily land you in the poorhouse if you get plundered. Getting back with the profit from it is a well-earned reward... and then you can start investing in an apartment, colony or begin ship building.

Netmarble screwed this up royally with ESBT and FSD, allowing billions to be made, while letting any newb capable of spamming top level of Syracuse make tens of millions in an hour or two. There was and still is no money sink for that level of money.

People just treated the first 90% of the game like it didn't exist and just spam/grind their way to Spice Trader or high-end production. No need to trade all those petty things when you could just sail to India after 2 days of playing. What risk? Just buy a few dozen Aos, or other million ducat items to avoid fighting every NPC you see. Go to a peddler and buy a few dozen of everything you need for disasters. Etc.

Of course, there is the matter of getting the Spice Trading skill, but what worry is that if you can just throw away a couple million Ducats by dumping a few hundred gallons of perfume in the ocean?

This game actually has obstacles built in, that impede player progress and make people work to get past, not just in time, but in costs. Half that equation is now missing and progress has been sped up exponentially with the injection of nearly a billion ducats to the long-terms veterans and 200-600 mil for the newer players under OGP.

People are being launched straight into the end game and just view the majority of the game as an annoyance.

Sadly, I remember the beginning of this game since I was there on week #2 of it in 2010. I have fresher view than most of you, since the last, long-term playspan I had in this game, took place in that era. To me, that was yesterday, since I only caught brief glimpses of the game at the end of NM and under OGP. Then after a week back in the game, my new company members powerleveled my Adventure by dragging me to EA behind their Clippers and Nanbaned me to max Trade in 2 hours. That sapped every ounce of fun out of the game at that point.

The game you're all playing now, despite a server "hiccup" under Papaya, is not the Uncharted Waters Online that was originally made.

I wrote in my 5 page Steam review, that a server reset would fix the issues this game has with its economy, mainly due to those inherent time and money sinks built into the game for the economy it was designed around. What I failed to consider is that the next company who did that, added, right back in, all the money that was artificially created in the first place.

theedgedemon · November 2017

@Lerxst

All of that last argument fails the one MAJOR check- you SELL TO A PLAYER.

If a player has hundreds of millions sitting in a bank, they'll pay stupid prices for everything - I sell stacks of 100 ore for 1000% mark-up and people will buy it. Sell that spice to the Market for trade exp and fame, the way the game was designed. Now tell me how much money you just made..

Eh no, 30k was the lowest price i have seen in spice (pepper even the NPC pays more for nutmeg mace and clove) and i was here before we had Calicut the first time.

There have always been players willing to buy from other players, and there will always be, either for fast exp, or commodity, pretending that a game which allows not one but 3 ways to sell to other players (Company Store, Bazaar and Aide Bazaar) was not designed for player interaction is plain self denial.

Point in case get Lumber for 200 ducats in Oslo and put in ANY CAPITAL at 25k and people will buy because they need it for quarters improvement and the half hour trip is not worth the 25k, put silk in Marseilles or Seville and it will sell at 20-30k quite fast too since too many sewing recipes need it, this game was never about getting things to sell to the NPC was about creating a flow of SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

also the biggest part of my last example was about making a ton of fast profit selling casting goods to a npc, which is lower but stable income way above your supposed examples.

for your second post

By the time you reach the point of making a few million on a spice run, the risks of doing that route to India is very real and could easily land you in the poorhouse if you get plundered.

that is false unless you are foolish enough to drag absolutely all your money in hand while doing the trip. which btw you are likely to not be able to due to max 200m on hand rule.

my new company members powerleveled my Adventure by dragging me to EA behind their Clippers and Nanbaned me to max Trade in 2 hours.

that is false, even doing long trips research while in adventure job you are taking 1-5k exp per hour, that means a single adventure level beyond 50 takes months of sailing, after trade 60 you need 5 to 10 full loads of 3 players + their aides worth of EA goods for a single level. Even the whole company couldn't have saved enough trade goods in all of their 50 accounts to get you max trade in 2 hours since each player quarters actually saves less than a single high end shipload.

Of course, there is the matter of getting the Spice Trading skill, but what worry is that if you can just throw away a couple million Ducats by dumping a few hundred gallons of perfume in the ocean?

that wouldn't cost you too much since you only need r3, without booster which we have right now, you need 20x5 (20x10 if not preferred ) for r2 and 40x10 (40x20 if not preferred ) for r3 which is 500-1000 trade goods at worse.

THAT is of course IF YOU WERE IN A SINGLE PLAYER GAME since you can kindly ask spice traders to help you.

heck i could continue for hours since in fact i do believe that there is not a single truthful statement in that last post, and that while the game is not in its ideal form, i am starting to believe that you are comparing this to a single player game and getting annoyed because it is different.

lastly i have always considered you where trying to ruin the fun for all of us since that is what is fun for you, but i would like you to refrain from trying to scare new players away.

theedgedemon · November 2017

@Belogard

There is no DOWN in the ship prices ("ups and downs"). Never has been. Only UPS. Always has been that way.

as more R20 ship builders pop up the prices have always gone down, not to mention new ships going out, for FS ships the first Big Trading Clippers with EA sold fast at 150m while in the late stages of the game hardly sold at 75m, right now you can get TLG at 50m which will not cost 20 in 1 month, and the coming of Morgan had same high price at start with a steady decline until it got to cost +25% or somethign like that.

now for UWC ship look at CustomVaiss sold at 800-1b at launch they are already 500-600m which color me surprised, is about the same price they had in the old server, were are talking 40% cut in less than a MONTH.

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

@belogard or whatever your name is since you're too scared to put your in game name due to it discrediting you

1.you said greed sets the price not supply and demand so you're saying if I set my the price of eggs to 200k each that automatically sets it in stone? The fact others can sell cheaper has or get themselves has ZERO to do with that you automatically must pay 200k for eggs because of greed how outrageously idiotic and preposterous LMAO that you don't believe in supply and demand shows you absolutely aren't a good seller probably one of those types that avoid Seville entirely because you're SCARED and CANT survive there even if you wanted to. Please post your IGN so we can laugh at your statement in game lmao.

2. We don't need govt or GM price regulation as we regulate ourselves either through competing with them or them getting a bad rep and people avoiding a really high priced seller. Just like in real life while not entirely identical to our free market in RL but its VERY VERY similar at least in the supply and demand and COMPETITION aspect

3.prices of ships go up and down all the time dependent on the supply due to bottle and how much demand the ship has as someone stated right above this post is an perfect example so I guess you're saying he pulled it out his rectum as well? Also hes NOT a cpc fan or follower so you're saying hes a liar as well or maybe everyone else has the intelligence to see it except you ofc.

But I'll give more examples

1.turtles price dropped and even more now since melee block is gone

2. My flfs was 18 bil when I bought it near end dropped to 12

3.my fave example...LLM was 4bil when it first dropped then near end of ogp it rose to 18 bil why duhhhhh the demand for it and the fact it wasn't put back in bottle so the supply of it dropped

4.deck battle ships were high 8 bil and up then deck was removed then those mkws dropped to 500mil ...but as you said only ups right? No demand at all right. ..And now that Deck back watch it go back up from 500mil to multi bills again

Facts is what I'm all about if this wasn't so nobody would care but heres more facts

Facts:

1.my money guides helped hundreds of players and I have tons of screnshots of people telling me thanks it worked etc.

2.im a FREE player and still was raking in 20 to 40 bil per month in player sales ask CCP or you saying she a liar too?

3. I've sold more items than ANY player in uwo that's a fact I posted the list of everything I sold and price on ogp for years and I still have all the excel spreadsheets and records of items sold and price and seller if you want to fact check

Cry all you want you know NOTHING about uwo free market stick to whatever you do and leave selling and economy to the professionals ie. ..not you oh and good luck with the dress up as a hair dresser thing boo in sure you'll look fabulous lol.

theedgedemon · November 2017

3. I've sold more items than ANY player in uwo that's a fact I posted the list of everything I sold and price on ogp for years and I still have all the excel spreadsheets and records of items sold and price and seller if you want to fact check

to be fair i am not so sure this one is true, there were too many re-sellers in game along with some heavy weight NC/UWC buyers selling stuff by the hundredths on a daily basis.

CrzyPsycoChick · November 2017

@edge

Post their balance sheet with names of buyers and sellers and prices as PROOF of sales like I did until then respect the Queen thank you

Katanauwo · November 2017

To OP, yes, the economy is fixed.

Now everyone has to spend their hard earn money for premium content once again.

This is just like a bandit robbed everything from you, and then sell you the fraction of your belongings to you at a very high price.

Good luck everyone.

Lerxst · November 2017

@theedgedemon I don't have to scare anyone off; they'll figure it out for themselves once this game has been populated for a few months. They'll play for a a few weeks, see everyone with such ridiculously overflowing bank accounts, selling crafted items for outrageous prices... compared to their 500k nest egg from completing all 3 schools. Then they get picked up by a Company, who rams EA and Nanaban goods down their throats to power level them to 60+, then set them loose to grind nonstop for weeks on end.

The best part of the game will be over for them within a month of starting. If they don't get power leveled, then they'll essentially be playing a solo game, doing what they can with the few pennies they have, while everyone around them talks about billion ducat sale prices and bitches about not having enough room in the bank to store their money.

It happened before and it's on the way to happening again, especially since all the vets are too busy playing The Emperor's new Clothes with this game's economy to notice the severe lack of new players joining post-launch.

theedgedemon · November 2017

you seem to be intentionally confusing "player retention" and "new players joining" to fit your rhetoric.

the value of items is correlated to the time invested in them and with the drive of cash shop players putting a price they consider fair to their RL money pushing the whole economic block, the prices are unlikely to ever decrease in the rates that you apparently dreamed with.

I'm sure that even if you did make a new server without founders or events or cash shop the prices will get to about the same rates sooner or later.

I am perfectly OK with that as i do believe i understand clearly enough the forces driving the change, and as such i am not obligated to do anything about it.

You on the other hand seen fixated in making a change and as such i suggest you "start with the man in the mirror", grind ranks yourself, produce all those overpriced items and defeat the competitors by undercutting their prices in open chat, the first few will be bough by re sellers no doubt but as you continue to flood markets with cheap goods they will be forced to lower prices to try to compete, and may even get millionaire loses on that , as seen previously with POs, LSB and SSIPs.

Donny71 · November 2017

well papaya can set limits on what you sell stuff for they just need to look what trade goods can be sold for at most and limit bazaars to that selling price. if you can sell nutmeg at 17K at the market then limit it to 17K in bazaars. same can be said for the ships and any other item. other online games have limits at what you can sell stuff for so why cant papaya do it on here ? maybe just laziness on their part or they don't give a F*** and just want to make as much money as they can as fast as they can.

Katanauwo · November 2017

I doubt there be many new players.

Most of them would not survive the ruthless capitalism after school.

The very few who got lucky in lottery may end up being whale players who spend without discipline and rage quit for good once they see credit bills.

Vet players are mainly busy with capitalising on their knowledge and exploits to build their new gold printing machine in the hope of screwing the economy again. I doubt they will be spending much money for junk ships like MFCV.

After all PPPlay has taken the fun part away, so greed is all that is left.

PPPlay has already milked enough cash through P2w from day 1 and has probably broken even. They wont give a sh1t if this game dies.

We are talking about a dead game walking.

aceman39 · November 2017

This game will not die if the loyal players keep playing and I know for a fact that there are new players joining as the company I am in has a few new players who joined us and yet you keep knocking the game. If you are not happy with it then maybe you should walk away for a while then come back and see how it is coming along

Did PapayaPlay really "Fixed" the game economy?

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