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Weapon, Map & Gameplay Balance & F2P Model (Balance and Solutions Explained + Ideas)
Killingtime
Posts: 246Member Trainee
In this thread I'm going to explain about weapon balance and what should be done about it and why.
First I'm going to start with listing all weapon in categories from our version of the game and also
compare them from weapons in other versions and explain how they could be improved:
1. Default Weapons, things already start to go wrong here, I'll explain why:
-Engineer and Medic Mp5- - - - - -Dmg: 40, Speed: 80, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 72, Weight: 18
-Assault K2- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dmg: 37, Speed: 75, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 76, Weight: 20
Now lets look at the stats in Korean War Rock:
-Mp5 Dmg: 37, Speed: 75, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 70, Weight: 18
-K2 Dmg: 40, Speed: 68, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 68, Weight: 20
Now this looks way more balanced and really makes more sense, because submachine guns are usually faster and lighter and deal less damage and are less accurate, just like the stats suggest!
This is not huge deal but we will get more into this problem with medic against assault later.
Though there is also Med kit 2 for medic that many people have for free, that item is supposed to be for 4th slot so you can have that instead of the kit 1 if you choose to, but now you have both which is just too good, its about same as assault having 2 extra nades in 8th slot.
-Sniper, M24, Dmg: 85, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 95, Recoil: 40, Weight: 20
M24 is surprisingly good thanks to the accuracy, I'd say its a perfect default sniper, there is nothing wrong with this sniper unlike other snipers that we will discuss later on, also its the only sniper rifle with proper bullet drop, the further you shoot the higher the drop and the higher the mental reward for the kill ;)
In Korean WR M24 is actually worse (Acc:75) and not used at all, but overall their sniper balance is way better.
-Heavy Trooper, Panzerfaust, Dmg: 100, Speed: 10, Accuracy: 85, Recoil: 63, Weight: 40
Also it does about 28% damage to a tank.
First of all the 100% Damage is not correct, its more like 80%, you cant one shot person even with direct hit, I'm not sure how I feel about this even though its just a default weapon, anyway well talk more about heavy/tank problems later.
In Korean WR the Panzerfaust stats seems to be correct at least:
-Panzerfaust, Dmg: 85, Speed: 10, Accuracy: 85, Recoil: 68, Weight: 40
Suggestion to improve Heavy Default slot:
What I have always wanted for the Heavy Trooper is to have Stinger or any AA weapon as an alternate default weapon, because you only have Panzerfaust but it doesn't do much damage to Helis/Planes and also its really hard to hit them with it.
So if you have Stinger or other AA weapon like Strela, you can at least switch between that and Panzerfaust without needing to buy anything, this way its easier to try out Battle Group since you at least have option to destroy Planes and Helis without first buying something.
2. Free weapons (weapons that can be purchased with Dinars):
2nd slot:
MP5K, PLR22, Beretta Dual, Beretta_M93R, Micro_Uzi, Glock, Desert Eagle, Magnum, USP, Throwing Knife, LugerP08
These weapons are a big mess now, most of the stats on these weapons are incorrect and pretty much only MP5K is used, however this will partially change when DE will implement the balance patch for our version, since it will include Buff for Magnum and Desert eagle, making Desert Eagle even competitively viable option, it has always been really boring to have all these other useless 2nd slot weapons, finally at least something will happen, the rest should be balanced as well in order to have nice variety of 2nd slot weapons and not just bunch of useless weapons lying around.
I'm not gonna go into any more details regarding 2nd slot weapons because we will get some balancing soon and 2nd slot weapons are not really top on the list of the important things to balance.
3rd slot:
For Medic, Engineer and Assault we have the following F2P weapons:
-Scar-H, AK47, M4A1, M16A4, T65K2_Camo, Tar_21, HK416, Degtyaryov, OTs14, G36C, G36C_D, Uzi_Pro, K7, K1, MP7A1, P90, UZI, PP2000, L34A1, MP40, M1903A3.
I won't go into details for each weapon because the weapon stats are incorrect for many and many are just useless underpowered weapons, I'll just list out and compare some, such as some of the most used ones.
Currently only about 4 of these weapons are used, before it was just K1 and M4A1 but then MP7A1 got released as a f2p weapon because its needed for Gun Smith crafting, its basically a premium tier weapon, because its just not on par with other f2p weapons.
Here is a comparison of MP7A1 stats in our version vs the Korean version:
Our version of WR: Dmg: 43, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 55
Korean WR: - - - - -Dmg: 41, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 34, Recoil: 81
So it does about same damage but makes it less good in medium/long distance fights and that's exactly how most medic weapons should be in order to not give too big advantage on Medic vs Assault fights.
Then Scar-H got released as a f2p weapon, its one of the strongest weapons in the game, many people complain about this because it can actually fight the likes of Famas, Vector and other pay2win real money
only weapons, its not balanced for where it is but it still balances the game out because it gives free2play players a fighting change against people with strong paid weapons in close quarter fights.
So currently when it comes to weapons in free2play matches, its just M4A1 vs K1
(Because these weapons are approved for the rules in the only competitive league ESL),
even this is not balanced, I'll show you why with the stats:
-M4A1 - Dmg: 43, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 45, Recoil: 54, Ammo: 30
-K1 - - - -Dmg: 40, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 64, Ammo: 30
But in reality the damage of K1 is more than M4A1, its actually 45 and even if M4A1 is little more accurate from a distance, it won't beat the Medic player with K1 because it can just keep weakening the Assault while healing in distance and in close quarter fights thanks to K1 speed and damage, it beats M4A1 easily.
Then lets have a look at the Korean stats of these weapons:
-M4A1 - Dmg: 43, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 45, Recoil: 72, Ammo: 30
-K1 - - - -Dmg: 45, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 72, Ammo: 30
Now that looks just perfect, M4A1 is little bit better from distance and this makes the f2p fights in Korean WR really balanced, I have experienced it, its great, they also have TMP9 and AK47 with great balanced stats for F2P, its just so good.
Then moving on to the next part;
Sniper: M40A1, SSG, AI_AW, AUG, AS50, DSR1, Tokarev_SVT40
Most of these are uselessbecause they have weak stats and also the stats are incorrect once again, I'd rather use M24 than any of these, I will get more into sniper balance stuff when we will get to the real money only sniper part.
Heavy: RPG7, Stinger, AT4
Not many really..
Also I tested RPG vs AT4, RPG barely misses 3-shot kill on basic tank while AT4 does the 3-shot kill barely, player vs tank is very unbalanced atm. I'm gonna talk more about it later on this post.
Korean WR has Javelin and Predator for F2P, Javelin is fire and forget missile launcher against Tanks and Predator is for both Tanks and Helis/Planes, we should have them too, but this is also about the full free2play
experience that I will also talk about more later on.
3. Real Money/Premium Only Weapons etc.:
Engineer, Medic & Assault:
-TMP9, MPX, AKS-74U, MAC10, Winchester, M4Super90, L85A1,T65K2, HK_G11, G36, Scar_L_Black, MD97, M60, M249Minimi. (Item Shop)
-
Famas, Scorpion_Dual, X95, PP91_Dual, F2000, XM8, DBR_Snake and maybe some new ones that I haven't even seen. (Packages/website)
-Gun Smith Weapons, you can get these for free basically but its months grind and you need to get lucky so NOPE.
Many of these weapons are bad even though they aren't easily available and some of these weapons are way too overpowered but pretty much every single one of these needs some tuning when aiming for the perfect balance, which would be great for the game.
Korean WR has different stats for many of these weapon which makes them way more balanced if not perfectly balanced, TMP9 for example. is F2P and has great balanced stats, some of the other ones are purchasable
with dinar and are well balanced but require the 5th slot therefore not being pure F2P.
Then for example. Famas has more balanced stats there, therefore not being as op as in our version,
here is a comparison:
-Our version Famas: - - -Dmg: 45, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 72
-Korean version Famas: Dmg: 44, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 30, Recoil 81
So Famas there is not close as good in medium/long range, making it way more balanced.
And moving on to the next and one of the most important part;
Sniper:
-AW50F (And VSS but its more like assault weapon, I'll mentioned it after this weapon below, oh and DSR-1TC)
I'm only going to mention AW50F because the rest doesn't matter, this sniper has 100% accuracy, is 1-shot to chest/stomach and can penetrate vehicles and because of these features, every other sniper in the game has no purpose.
Also a good player in a good position can keep the whole (small) team from escaping certain bases, such as Conturas where you have only Planes to escape with, when you enter the vehicle, good player can stop you by shooting with 100% accuracy trough the glass of the plane, therefore forcing you to change to sniper class and kill him before you can escape from base, so if you don't have AW50F too, basically you are screwed.
This weapon has singlehandedly reduced WR's player base a lot, I'm sure of it, there has been countless threads by countless people at the forums trying to remove or nerf this weapon but it never happened.
Heavily nerfing this weapons accuracy will make the whole game a lot more balanced already, so hoping it gets done asap.
Also VSS is really bad, it makes Sniper perform like Assault while ALSO having access to AW50F, making it extremely deadly combo. VSS has been nerfed in other versions, it only has 70% damage therefore not being able to get 1 shot head shot unlike in our versions with the 75% damage, also its a bit more slow in other versions too, making it way more balanced, so we could use their stats too.
I also made a big explanation and suggestion about sniper balance, its highlighted with big red text and can be found from at around middle of the thread.
Heavy Trooper:
-M134, M202_Flash, QLB06, MG3, MK1S (Especially the DE one), HK69, EX_41, Karl Kustav.
Only MK1S is really overpowered out of these weapons, especially the DE one, everyone knows it and everyone wants it nerfed (again) I guess Nexon made it overpowered again in order to milk out some more cash before leaving WR. Basically there are 3 launchers in WR but MK1S is easily the best while EX_41 is the weakest, they just need some small tuning.
Items:
-Fast Charcing, Fast Reload, 6th slot change, SP Ups, Stamina, Adrenaline, HP Kit.
In other versions Fast Charging only works for Zombie mode, in our version it also works for BG mode, I don't agree with this since BG already has a lot balance issues, so it should be made to work in A.I mode only.
Sp Ups, these are very important items, they give more speed for the game because you can move around faster, without SP Ups I think the game would be too slow, but these really should be available for everyone (same goes for the other items), I will talk more about that later.
-Flash and M14 mines, these are invisible for opposing team in our version of WR, this doesn't make sense and it promotes camping and also gives way too much points for very little effort, Korean WR has got it right again, in their version the opposing team players can also see the mines making them fair and balanced, we really need this too.
Characters/Costumes/Clothing:
Characters are very overpowered, they add another layer off pay2win on already unbalanced game, these should be cosmetics only, except for Zombie mode.
Weapon descriptions and stats:
Many of the weapon descriptions are wrong or misleading, they all need fixing, same goes for stats, like I already mentioned, also Weight information doesn't show up until you buy the weapon, its part of the stats so it should be shown there among the other stats even before purchasing the weapon.
List of Weapons that are confirmed to be balanced by DE in the future:
-NTW_20, SR2 Veresk Dual, AK47 Dual, DSR1TC, Stinger_Winter, AK47TC, M134, X95, Desert Eagle, Magnum.
Desert Eagle and Magnum will receive a buff while the others will receive a nerf, however since some weapons in our version might have different stats, this could also mean buff for some weapons, such as SR2 Veresk Dual, that I heard is weak in our version.
Korean WR got these changes and few weeks later Philippines WR got these changes and the admin there said that these are forced changes by the developer and will be implement in all versions of War Rock.
Quick Nerf Weapon List:
-AW50F, MK1S_DE
These should be the priority and should be nerfed quickly first, there are more but these are most important and will instantly many BG Maps playable again.
Other threads about weapon balance:
http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356146/read-the-big-weapon-balance-topic
http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356135/vertigo-games-remove-mk1s-de-from-this-game
This is Part 1 explaining Weapon balance and its problems and solutions, in the next post below I'm going to explain and talk about Pure Free2Play Model because its a great solution for all of these balance problems.
And also about Sales.
First I'm going to start with listing all weapon in categories from our version of the game and also
compare them from weapons in other versions and explain how they could be improved:
1. Default Weapons, things already start to go wrong here, I'll explain why:
-Engineer and Medic Mp5- - - - - -Dmg: 40, Speed: 80, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 72, Weight: 18
-Assault K2- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Dmg: 37, Speed: 75, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 76, Weight: 20
Mp5 has 3% more damage, 5% more speed, 4% less recoil and 2% less weight,
while K2 has 2% more accuracy, this doesn't seem like a fair trade-off.
Also for assault weapon to be worse than medic weapon, it doesn't make much sense really.
while K2 has 2% more accuracy, this doesn't seem like a fair trade-off.
Also for assault weapon to be worse than medic weapon, it doesn't make much sense really.
Now lets look at the stats in Korean War Rock:
-Mp5 Dmg: 37, Speed: 75, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 70, Weight: 18
-K2 Dmg: 40, Speed: 68, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 68, Weight: 20
Now this looks way more balanced and really makes more sense, because submachine guns are usually faster and lighter and deal less damage and are less accurate, just like the stats suggest!
This is not huge deal but we will get more into this problem with medic against assault later.
Though there is also Med kit 2 for medic that many people have for free, that item is supposed to be for 4th slot so you can have that instead of the kit 1 if you choose to, but now you have both which is just too good, its about same as assault having 2 extra nades in 8th slot.
-Sniper, M24, Dmg: 85, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 95, Recoil: 40, Weight: 20
M24 is surprisingly good thanks to the accuracy, I'd say its a perfect default sniper, there is nothing wrong with this sniper unlike other snipers that we will discuss later on, also its the only sniper rifle with proper bullet drop, the further you shoot the higher the drop and the higher the mental reward for the kill ;)
In Korean WR M24 is actually worse (Acc:75) and not used at all, but overall their sniper balance is way better.
-Heavy Trooper, Panzerfaust, Dmg: 100, Speed: 10, Accuracy: 85, Recoil: 63, Weight: 40
Also it does about 28% damage to a tank.
First of all the 100% Damage is not correct, its more like 80%, you cant one shot person even with direct hit, I'm not sure how I feel about this even though its just a default weapon, anyway well talk more about heavy/tank problems later.
In Korean WR the Panzerfaust stats seems to be correct at least:
-Panzerfaust, Dmg: 85, Speed: 10, Accuracy: 85, Recoil: 68, Weight: 40
Suggestion to improve Heavy Default slot:
What I have always wanted for the Heavy Trooper is to have Stinger or any AA weapon as an alternate default weapon, because you only have Panzerfaust but it doesn't do much damage to Helis/Planes and also its really hard to hit them with it.
So if you have Stinger or other AA weapon like Strela, you can at least switch between that and Panzerfaust without needing to buy anything, this way its easier to try out Battle Group since you at least have option to destroy Planes and Helis without first buying something.
2. Free weapons (weapons that can be purchased with Dinars):
2nd slot:
MP5K, PLR22, Beretta Dual, Beretta_M93R, Micro_Uzi, Glock, Desert Eagle, Magnum, USP, Throwing Knife, LugerP08
These weapons are a big mess now, most of the stats on these weapons are incorrect and pretty much only MP5K is used, however this will partially change when DE will implement the balance patch for our version, since it will include Buff for Magnum and Desert eagle, making Desert Eagle even competitively viable option, it has always been really boring to have all these other useless 2nd slot weapons, finally at least something will happen, the rest should be balanced as well in order to have nice variety of 2nd slot weapons and not just bunch of useless weapons lying around.
I'm not gonna go into any more details regarding 2nd slot weapons because we will get some balancing soon and 2nd slot weapons are not really top on the list of the important things to balance.
3rd slot:
For Medic, Engineer and Assault we have the following F2P weapons:
-Scar-H, AK47, M4A1, M16A4, T65K2_Camo, Tar_21, HK416, Degtyaryov, OTs14, G36C, G36C_D, Uzi_Pro, K7, K1, MP7A1, P90, UZI, PP2000, L34A1, MP40, M1903A3.
I won't go into details for each weapon because the weapon stats are incorrect for many and many are just useless underpowered weapons, I'll just list out and compare some, such as some of the most used ones.
Currently only about 4 of these weapons are used, before it was just K1 and M4A1 but then MP7A1 got released as a f2p weapon because its needed for Gun Smith crafting, its basically a premium tier weapon, because its just not on par with other f2p weapons.
Here is a comparison of MP7A1 stats in our version vs the Korean version:
Our version of WR: Dmg: 43, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 55
Korean WR: - - - - -Dmg: 41, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 34, Recoil: 81
So it does about same damage but makes it less good in medium/long distance fights and that's exactly how most medic weapons should be in order to not give too big advantage on Medic vs Assault fights.
Then Scar-H got released as a f2p weapon, its one of the strongest weapons in the game, many people complain about this because it can actually fight the likes of Famas, Vector and other pay2win real money
only weapons, its not balanced for where it is but it still balances the game out because it gives free2play players a fighting change against people with strong paid weapons in close quarter fights.
So currently when it comes to weapons in free2play matches, its just M4A1 vs K1
(Because these weapons are approved for the rules in the only competitive league ESL),
even this is not balanced, I'll show you why with the stats:
-M4A1 - Dmg: 43, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 45, Recoil: 54, Ammo: 30
-K1 - - - -Dmg: 40, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 64, Ammo: 30
But in reality the damage of K1 is more than M4A1, its actually 45 and even if M4A1 is little more accurate from a distance, it won't beat the Medic player with K1 because it can just keep weakening the Assault while healing in distance and in close quarter fights thanks to K1 speed and damage, it beats M4A1 easily.
Then lets have a look at the Korean stats of these weapons:
-M4A1 - Dmg: 43, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 45, Recoil: 72, Ammo: 30
-K1 - - - -Dmg: 45, Speed: 70, Accuracy: 38, Recoil: 72, Ammo: 30
Now that looks just perfect, M4A1 is little bit better from distance and this makes the f2p fights in Korean WR really balanced, I have experienced it, its great, they also have TMP9 and AK47 with great balanced stats for F2P, its just so good.
Then moving on to the next part;
Sniper: M40A1, SSG, AI_AW, AUG, AS50, DSR1, Tokarev_SVT40
Most of these are uselessbecause they have weak stats and also the stats are incorrect once again, I'd rather use M24 than any of these, I will get more into sniper balance stuff when we will get to the real money only sniper part.
Heavy: RPG7, Stinger, AT4
Not many really..
Also I tested RPG vs AT4, RPG barely misses 3-shot kill on basic tank while AT4 does the 3-shot kill barely, player vs tank is very unbalanced atm. I'm gonna talk more about it later on this post.
Korean WR has Javelin and Predator for F2P, Javelin is fire and forget missile launcher against Tanks and Predator is for both Tanks and Helis/Planes, we should have them too, but this is also about the full free2play
experience that I will also talk about more later on.
3. Real Money/Premium Only Weapons etc.:
Engineer, Medic & Assault:
-TMP9, MPX, AKS-74U, MAC10, Winchester, M4Super90, L85A1,T65K2, HK_G11, G36, Scar_L_Black, MD97, M60, M249Minimi. (Item Shop)
-
Famas, Scorpion_Dual, X95, PP91_Dual, F2000, XM8, DBR_Snake and maybe some new ones that I haven't even seen. (Packages/website)
-Gun Smith Weapons, you can get these for free basically but its months grind and you need to get lucky so NOPE.
Many of these weapons are bad even though they aren't easily available and some of these weapons are way too overpowered but pretty much every single one of these needs some tuning when aiming for the perfect balance, which would be great for the game.
Korean WR has different stats for many of these weapon which makes them way more balanced if not perfectly balanced, TMP9 for example. is F2P and has great balanced stats, some of the other ones are purchasable
with dinar and are well balanced but require the 5th slot therefore not being pure F2P.
Then for example. Famas has more balanced stats there, therefore not being as op as in our version,
here is a comparison:
-Our version Famas: - - -Dmg: 45, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 40, Recoil: 72
-Korean version Famas: Dmg: 44, Speed: 90, Accuracy: 30, Recoil 81
So Famas there is not close as good in medium/long range, making it way more balanced.
And moving on to the next and one of the most important part;
Sniper:
-AW50F (And VSS but its more like assault weapon, I'll mentioned it after this weapon below, oh and DSR-1TC)
I'm only going to mention AW50F because the rest doesn't matter, this sniper has 100% accuracy, is 1-shot to chest/stomach and can penetrate vehicles and because of these features, every other sniper in the game has no purpose.
Also a good player in a good position can keep the whole (small) team from escaping certain bases, such as Conturas where you have only Planes to escape with, when you enter the vehicle, good player can stop you by shooting with 100% accuracy trough the glass of the plane, therefore forcing you to change to sniper class and kill him before you can escape from base, so if you don't have AW50F too, basically you are screwed.
This weapon has singlehandedly reduced WR's player base a lot, I'm sure of it, there has been countless threads by countless people at the forums trying to remove or nerf this weapon but it never happened.
Heavily nerfing this weapons accuracy will make the whole game a lot more balanced already, so hoping it gets done asap.
Also VSS is really bad, it makes Sniper perform like Assault while ALSO having access to AW50F, making it extremely deadly combo. VSS has been nerfed in other versions, it only has 70% damage therefore not being able to get 1 shot head shot unlike in our versions with the 75% damage, also its a bit more slow in other versions too, making it way more balanced, so we could use their stats too.
I also made a big explanation and suggestion about sniper balance, its highlighted with big red text and can be found from at around middle of the thread.
Heavy Trooper:
-M134, M202_Flash, QLB06, MG3, MK1S (Especially the DE one), HK69, EX_41, Karl Kustav.
Only MK1S is really overpowered out of these weapons, especially the DE one, everyone knows it and everyone wants it nerfed (again) I guess Nexon made it overpowered again in order to milk out some more cash before leaving WR. Basically there are 3 launchers in WR but MK1S is easily the best while EX_41 is the weakest, they just need some small tuning.
Items:
-Fast Charcing, Fast Reload, 6th slot change, SP Ups, Stamina, Adrenaline, HP Kit.
In other versions Fast Charging only works for Zombie mode, in our version it also works for BG mode, I don't agree with this since BG already has a lot balance issues, so it should be made to work in A.I mode only.
Sp Ups, these are very important items, they give more speed for the game because you can move around faster, without SP Ups I think the game would be too slow, but these really should be available for everyone (same goes for the other items), I will talk more about that later.
-Flash and M14 mines, these are invisible for opposing team in our version of WR, this doesn't make sense and it promotes camping and also gives way too much points for very little effort, Korean WR has got it right again, in their version the opposing team players can also see the mines making them fair and balanced, we really need this too.
Characters/Costumes/Clothing:
Characters are very overpowered, they add another layer off pay2win on already unbalanced game, these should be cosmetics only, except for Zombie mode.
Weapon descriptions and stats:
Many of the weapon descriptions are wrong or misleading, they all need fixing, same goes for stats, like I already mentioned, also Weight information doesn't show up until you buy the weapon, its part of the stats so it should be shown there among the other stats even before purchasing the weapon.
List of Weapons that are confirmed to be balanced by DE in the future:
-NTW_20, SR2 Veresk Dual, AK47 Dual, DSR1TC, Stinger_Winter, AK47TC, M134, X95, Desert Eagle, Magnum.
Desert Eagle and Magnum will receive a buff while the others will receive a nerf, however since some weapons in our version might have different stats, this could also mean buff for some weapons, such as SR2 Veresk Dual, that I heard is weak in our version.
Korean WR got these changes and few weeks later Philippines WR got these changes and the admin there said that these are forced changes by the developer and will be implement in all versions of War Rock.
Quick Nerf Weapon List:
-AW50F, MK1S_DE
These should be the priority and should be nerfed quickly first, there are more but these are most important and will instantly many BG Maps playable again.
Other threads about weapon balance:
http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356146/read-the-big-weapon-balance-topic
http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356135/vertigo-games-remove-mk1s-de-from-this-game
This is Part 1 explaining Weapon balance and its problems and solutions, in the next post below I'm going to explain and talk about Pure Free2Play Model because its a great solution for all of these balance problems.
And also about Sales.
Comments
Free 2 Play Model Talk:
Linkinxero made a thread about Free2Play Discussion, he was inspired by a GM at Dekaron forums, where the GM wanted to discuss about Free2Play model and how they could make it win-win for both player and the game.
The thread can be found from here: http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356030/free2play-open-topic-discussions
I already made a big answer in that thread, regarding what I think its the best for the game and players, "Pure Free2Play model".
But I'm going to write it here too with some improvements because it goes hand-in-hand with the Weapon Balance problems.
Pure Free2Play Model means that nothing in the game that is for real money only should give an
advantage over F2P player, so every weapon and almost every item should be purchasable with Dinar.
(and real money)
This is must if you want the game to get popular, if a game is pay2win and 1 big youtuber gives it a negative review mentioning pay2win, it can make hundreds of thousands of players to not even think about trying the game out, that's how it goes nowadays.
"Well how would you do that in a way that also monetizes the game?"
I have a very good ideas that are combined ideas from what is done in other free2play games:
1. Level up unlock system
-Unlock weapons and items to be purchasable with Dinar when leveling up, example.
When you level up to level 5, you can buy 5% SP UP with Dinar, however you could also buy this item with real money even before the level, therefore just getting you ready for battle faster, but not giving an advantage, because anyone can get it after playing the game enough, this method is "grindy" but this way at least you can have a legit free2play game, this also gives more purpose for leveling up, that never really
had much of a purpose.
You could have weapons and items to be unlocked up to level 30/50 for example. Also if having big level from the past is problem, you could either have a separate "Papaya level" for these unlocks or new "item shop level" which would be exp gained since this system became available. But before this could be done there would need to be complete weapon/item balancing, its a big mess currently.
2.There are currently real money/premium only items that are fine and doesn't cause unbalance issues and there are more to be made, currently we have following items for real money/premium only that are completely fine:
-Revival coins, these give advantage in zombie mode
, so against A.I, that is totally fine, if zombie mode works properly, I'd personally be glad to buy some of these to help me in the challenging new zombie map for example. Zombie mode in War Rock is pretty good, with some improvements and fixes it could be more popular and more items/weapons specifically for zombie mode could be sold.
-AVV Medicine/other Zombie only items/packages, also good for Zombie mode.
-Exp/Dinar ups, totally fine, again its just skipping the grind.
-Clan Expansions and other clan items.
-Ham Radio, Nick Change, KD Ratio Reset, fine, doesn't affect balance.
-
Tank Camo in Premium, camos are totally fine, I just don't think it fits in premium since not everyone plays BG/tanks. So selling these another way would be great.
-Top Gun aka Plane Camo, gives your plane a camo and some exp boost if you are top pilot.
2.1. Then there are real money/premium only items that would be fine with some tweaking:
-Weapons with different skins/camos,
These are fine mostly but needs some tweaking, some have useless scopes and some have stats increased which is not fine, again its about the balance, so not gonna mention more about that, instead I'm going to tell good ways to sell skinned weapons:
+"Monthly premium skin"
+"Seasonal skin supply box" e.g have different skin for specific weapon in supply
box and one rare and few semi rares that changes every month/bi-monthly/season and then
like in the supply boxes now, you get one skin randomly from 5 days to
permanent.
+And also Packages e.g "Autumn camo package" with e.g K1, M4A1, PSG1 and RPG1 each for 30 days.
By doing sales like this there is no straight way to buy one skin separately (at least not the most rare ones) most of the time, so there is no easy way to
get specific skin for long time so people can have more rare skins, of course unless you pay a lot for them which is good because it keeps the game running.
-Characters/parts/clothing, currently they give big advantage over whoever doesn't buy them, my way of balancing this would be:
Make the characters have no stats /advantage for CQC/BG modes and only have advantages in A.I Channel aka zombie mode. This way you can sell cool characters that only have cosmetic effect and no advantages against other players.
You can also make the characters or character parts give more EXP/Dinar or have different emotes/taunts or whatever they are called that can be done by pressing F8-F12.
-Premium, it could use some tweaking if we were to make this game free2play, now you get:
Tank Camo Digital, Super Master, 5th slot, exp ups, weapons/items and the premium itself includes Dinar, Access to items in item shop and being able to access any map in room creation. And there are variations of premium that includes similar stuff.
Tank Camo is fine but it doesn't fit the premium since not everyone plays BG/Tanks, it should be sold another way.
Super Master, this is fine as it gives some extra XP for you and others in the room. It fits in premium well.
Same goes for EXP Ups and in the premium itself there is 50% exp too, its nice only way to have this specific exp ups.
5th slot, I guess its fine as long as its also available for dinar, which it isn't at the moment.
Access to items in item shop, I think this should be removed because ideally you want to have access to items for dinar too, some from the beginning and some after level ups.
Full map access for room creation, this should be removed because every map should be available for everyone.
Weapons, my idea is to have monthly/bi-monthly limited weapon camos/character
parts included in premium, its almost like that now except that there
are weapons that are not available for dinar.
Items, items like sp up or Fast reload, those should be available for dinar and then you
could include them. There is also "nick name decoration" is this the
Stealth badge or what?
So Premium would be left with:
50% Premium exp boost, possible other EXP/Dinar Ups, Super Master, monthly limited weapon camos, Dinar and maybe items like SP Ups/Fast Reload and Stealth badge. Additionally you could have things like -20% off everything in item shop.
2.2. Additional things that could be added that would be fine for real money only:
-New Taunts (when you press F8, F9 etc.)
-Weapons specifically for Zombie mode
-Super master 2, if you really want people to play in your room you can buy this expensive item that gives every player who plays in the room additional 20% Exp and Dinar (Super master 1 is only 5% exp no dinar)
-PX Box from Korean WR, its random box that gives Random PX Items for random amount of days and sometimes Dinar.
-There is more that I can't remember now, I've had tons of things in my mind in the past.
Ending words for Free2Play Model talk:
Lastly again I would like to say that for all of these to work we would really need to do proper balancing for all weapons, systems like random boxes, Mystery boxes, military supply boxes and sales, those are a big mess atm.
In the next post I'm going to talk about Map and Gameplay balance.
Map & Mechanics balance/issues, starting with Mechanics.
1. Leaning, its nice feature but its very buggy mechanic, normal leaning is fine, but there are following leans which give unfair/unrealistic advantage and also slow down the gameplay because people will camp more:
-Invertleaning, you can do this in many different spots in just about every map, in the screenshot below you can see one of the nastier ones, the opponent can fully see you and shoot you while you cannot see him almost at all, you can just see hes weapon coming trough the wall, not every invertlean is this bad but even the worse ones are still really strong.
I believe the problem is the player camera, it seems to be near the chest instead of head, I'm not exactly sure how to fix this, but moving the player camera or removing the ability to shoot if your gun is pointing against a wall/object could do the trick. In battlefield 4 they made it so that the bullets come from your weapons end so you couldn't do "headglitch" which is slightly similar to invertlean.
It's pretty much a "metagame" to use invertlean for your advantage and its really boring, makes the game more slow and promotes camping, fixing this would make the game much better without a doubt.
Here is also the headglitch that I mentioned, its also in warrock and it could be solved with the shooting from the end of your actual guns barrel. (The other player can fully see me whilst i see only tiny bit of hes head)
-Walkleaning, this can be done in pretty much any corner and even though it might not be as effective as invertlean, its still very bad for the game and its actually a bannable offense atm. at nexon, you can see it on the screenshots below. (You can fully see and shoot the opponent while he can barely see you)
Again the solution of removing the ability to shoot if there are objects in front of you could fix this problem too, I don't think having this as a bannable offense is enough, people will do everything they can do, only way to stop people doing something is to remove the ability to do that.
-360 lean, with this lean you can hide behind a corner while you still can see behind the corner without you being seen because of the player body is rotated other way, should also be fixed somehow.
-Leaning to corners and seeing trough them, you can abuse this in many corners of certain maps and gain an advantage, this is also bannable offense but I still see people using it from time to time, fixing this would be great, but I don't know how.
Also I guess I should mention that Korean and Japanese WR players decided to not use lean at all because of these glitches and everyone actually follows that rule.
2. Crouch to Prone glitch, if you shoot while going from crouch to prone, it does visual/sound bug where it looks and sounds like the opponent is shooting twice the amount hes actually shooting, its just a buggy mechanic and it would be nice to get this fixed as its really confusing.
Also being able to prone so fast doesn't make much sense, would be great if the animation were a bit slower.
Video showing this glitch:
3. Being able to stick tanks gun trough objects and shoot glitch, this can give big advantage and is often seen in Ohara map where the other team is "basecamping" the opposing team with tanks, it can be really hard to take out the tank if the player decides to use this glitch.
Video showing this glitch:
4. Death cam in CQC (not the actual Death Cam setting)
When you die in CQC you are able to spectate your teammates and leave a "cam" so you are able to look from that spot if the enemies are coming, its basically a bug and it makes the competitive play in CQC less exciting so its should be fixed, they had thread about it in the old forums and the community agreed to fix it a certain way which is:
Allow you to view from your dead body for 5 seconds and then you can
only rotate between teammates (you cannot go back to your body, nor can
you take a "cam")
Old thread about this problem can be found from here:
http://forums.warrock.nexon.net/discussion/177/cqc-death-cam/p1
Map balance:
1. CQC, there are few maps in CQC that are much more easy to play from NIU because of map structure or spawns.
-Velruf is a good example of NIU being more easy, however this is not the case in other version as they have moved the spawns on this (and few other maps) map so that Derbaran can actually rush a little bit instead of dying to a grenade, so I'm really hoping to see the spawn point changes implemented from KWR on this and possibly some other maps too.
-Bloc, NIU has huge uphill advantage which basically makes it impossible for Derbaran to rush or pretty much get out of base, I don't think spawns changes would be enough for this map, I think restructuring the map would do the trick, Dream Execution has been renewing the maps lately anyway so its possible that they have this already planned but if not then we could ask them to.
-Khali, It's actually Derbaran side that is way more easy on this map, moving the spawn points just a little bit would make the map more balanced.
BG maps and balance.
There are a lot unbalance in maps like Crater that has other base in the open without much cover etc. but since Dream Execution is actually middle of renewing maps, I won't go into details and instead see if they will do something for the maps that need balancing, so far they have improved many BG maps and I believe they will go trough all of them and maybe even CQC maps too.
Also the unbalance in BG is mostly about the power of vehicles/lack of anti vehicle weapons for f2p etc. but they have tuned the vehicles/equipment for BG a lot and we will be getting those updates too so I won't mention too much about them.
Some vehicles in BG currently have ridiculous damage output, like being able to do 70% damage with 1 bullet from any machine gun with 100% accuracy from any distance, they will be tuning down the accuracy for some vehicle guns but I'm worried that they won't notice the ridiculous damage in our version, this is very important and needs to be taken care off.
Then there are some Helicopters that are way too good, most will get some big nerfs but I believe Apache and MD500 will still be quite overpowered, but we will need to see when we get the balance updates as well.
There are also things like teamstacking and starting a game with 2v1 etc.
You can read about the map balance/renewal and vehicle/equipment balance from this thread:
http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/356263/korean-wr-update-thread-many-balance-patches#latest
I might have forgotten something, so I might add more later, for now that's it.
Edit: Added Death Cam. (Mechanics part 4)
I agree that M24 should keep at a 95% accuracy.
I think that Panzerfaust, and really any rocket (except the M202 due to rapid fire), should be a one hit direct kill against an infantry. One way to keep the Panzer from being too strong is having a delay from click to when the rocket actually fires. Another way is give it some weird spread - have it twist around in a helix before straigtening out in long distance. This way, if you're in close-medium range combat, the rocket might fly past someone because it spiraled too far to one side.
I do support the idea of the Stinger existing as a default weapon alongside the Panzer. But if my idea for these rockets being one shot against infantry were implemented, Stinger shouldn't be a default and should be purchased to gain the anti air advantages it possesses.
In regards to second slot weapons: I have not seen the LugerP08, USP, Micro-UZI, or PLR22 - I think. Maybe someone used them and I didn't recognize what those guns were. Anyhow, yes the 2nd slots are kind of messy, but I agree they are not a priority in balancing.
A lot of the F2P weapons you mention for E/M/A - are they actually available in the game somewhere? As dinar items? I haven't seen them. I've never used an MP40, M1903A3, PP2000, OTs14, Uzi_Pro, or the T65K2_Camo.
Regarding sniper: AIAW is back to F2P? I guess I remember that that had happened. And it's a good thing. I haven't ever touched the AS50, DSR1, or Tokarev_SVT40 myself.
For heavy: Really, that's all we get? Dang. I always go RPG myself for the ability to one-shot personnel. I agree that Javelin and Predator should come as F2P options.
For the P2P E/M/A weapons: A lot of these go underused. I finally found a Mac10 user. I haven't seen a Winchester or M4Super90 user in years - these should be considered F2P (even if they stay 5th slot -- 5th slot just needs to be F2P purchasable). G36 is rare too - it used to be a F2P weapon, and I think it should go back to being one.
Yes, AW50F needs a nerf. Possibly the easiest is removing the chest kill. Even if players need to aim for the head, it does make it a tougher shot. While that change wouldn't strongly deter the scenario you explain about sniping people in planes, it would make it harder for them to keep track of everyone if they need to take an extra half second to make sure they're aimed at the head and not the chest when shooting at the plane. Alternatively, a way to change it is introduce settle time, and make it terrible accuracy if you're not prone.
The VSS is insane because players die as quickly as if they were being sniped by an AW50F, but you get 10 attempts over a second to try to kill someone with it. Your description of it makes it comparable to the AUG, which basically does make the sniper act like assault, so I wanted to make that distinction -- you can at least survive an encounter with an AUG.
For the Heavy trooper, I haven't realized so many weapons got introduced. The MK1S came to outclass the HK69 completely, didn't it? Both grenade launchers? And I haven't heard of the QLB06, the EX_41, or the Karl Kustav. Could any of these, if any of those are machine guns, be introduced as a F2P option? I feel like MG3 could cut it, because it wasn't that good.
For costumes, I can support them having benefits only in zombie mode.
You mention the M134 getting a nerf - oh no! I think it's a fantastic weapon and I wish I could play with it again. What about it needs nerfing? It takes a skilled user to wield it well.
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In regards to restructing the F2P model: first, thanks for linking to my other discussion so I hope people check that out.
I support the idea of everything being obtainable through Dinar and with level limits. I think it should be keenly balanced such that someone can afford 2-3 primary weapons every month if they play for 2-3 hours per day, every day, for a month. You want weapons to be affordable after putting in 60-90 hours a month because it would be these players breathing life into the game by populating the servers.
However, here's where PP starts making money: Leveling is fast at the low levels. Check out the FAQ on that. Level up rewards can be used to pad player's accounts with dinar and awesome weapons they'd want to buy again (which can be slightly more expensive). The goal here is to get players spending their dinar recklessly, living the high life, and realizing when they're in the 30s, 40s, and 50s that they can't afford as many weapons as before. They've worked hard on this account and don't want to just start a new one, so they'll buy into premium to get the perks they had gone without, but at the same time using that as their source of dinar. Or they buy the weapons directly.
I agree that anything that does not impact player vs player gameplay on a game-to-game basis can be restricted to a paid tier. Clan stuff? Make it paid. Vehicle color changes? Can be paid. Nick changes and KD resets? Sure thing, paid. EXP/Dinar bonuses? Paid stuff, just fine. Cosmetic-only accessories/clothing, sure, make it paid.
For the things like vehicle color changes and clothing, there are a surprising number of people that will pay to look cool in the game.
I'm pretty sure I've commented on the other stuff in my F2P thread (and even the same stuff), but I stuck to addressing the ideas pertaining to match balancing.
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Closing tip: You probably see those words out of line because the forums processed <br> tags. Click on the source code button (far right on editor) and make sure you have those <br> tags only where you want a new paragraph.
Great topic, great information.
Much needed features on a forum
1. About Stinger, it's AA so it shouldn't be direct hit 1 shot kill against infantry, there are explanations why its not effective against infantry IRL when you google it, so its best to just have it as it is and make it secondary default weapon.
Though people at Korean WR forums discussed about Stinger and they said how it is too easy for skilled MD500 and other pilots to dodge the stingers, so they suggested for stinger to work like in Battlefield 4, so you can lock on and fire and keep the crosshair on the target unless it hits, so it will be a guaranteed hit, but I will prolly talk more about this stuff in the Weapon balance part.
For the other actual Rocket launchers, sure but I think everything else relative already is 1 shot except for Panzerfaust so..
2. And yes the mentioned F2P weapons are available and out of the ones you mentioned, I think only Uzi_Pro is actually usable.
3. About AW50F, removing chest 1 hit kill isn't good solution because AW50F beats every other sniper by having way more accuracy and even though M24 is close with accuracy, it has a lot bullet drop and AW50F doesn't. So its really the accuracy that needs nerf, it has only 75/80 accuracy in KWR but its still used.
Best thing we can do is balance all the snipers all together so most of them will have their uses, also every sniper should have bullet drop, that would balance sniping a lot already.
Also yes AI_AW is F2P.
4. The M134 nerf is fine, I know because I have done massive killstreaks with M134 before and I know how devastating it can be against infantry in maps like Siege War last part, the nerf is just for the speed, its still good.
5. Dinar in F2P system, yeah it should be well though and balanced so that you don't need to grind like crazy, but so that its not too easy and fast to buy everything, basically like you said person should be able to buy 2-3 primary weapons and also something like SP UPS, Secondary weapon, knife and 6th slot item per month if they play few hours a day, most of the month.
So unless they grind a lot or pay, they wouldn't able to have every class ready and equipped with all the weapons and items all the time, but instead have to choose what to play every month.
Also thanks for the tips, I don't know how that happened, there are BR tags all over..took me while to fix it partially, its difficult to fix the rest because the preview in the source code only works for about first third on the post lol.
Here 1 example.
Both got 70 Speed. But 70 Speed doesnt mean 70 Speed.
Watch here ^^
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90% of the SniperRifles got a Random Spread. You Point a Target, wait 10 Hours, shoot, and the bullet hits 30 meters beside your Target. There is no "Aim" "Skill" or something like that needed. Its all about Luck.
Its easyer to snipe with a K1 than with any of those rifles like M40A1, M21 or what ever.
Thats why i love m24. It has a huge bullet drop BUT if you are able to handle the Drop you are able to hit everything. There is no random "I hit 40 Billion Meters beside my Target" Spread.
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An accuracy reduction alone wouldn't have really stopped me from shotgunning it, but it would've slowed me down sniping the other guys using AW50F with reverse lean.
Much needed features on a forum
That's right, only M24 has some kind of proper bullet mechanics, we really need those mechanics for other snipers too, things like bullet drop.
@linkinxero
"An accuracy reduction alone wouldn't have really stopped me from
shotgunning it, but it would've slowed me down sniping the other guys
using AW50F with reverse lean."
Well that's another problem that I'm going to discuss about in 3rd post, the buggy leaning mechanics, invertlean is really dirty and ridiculous mechanic, it also slows the game down a lot and promotes camping, but its mostly in cqc and the biggest problems with AW50F are in BG, shotgunning someone with it also doesn't matter, though its ridiculous if the weapon has 100% accuracy even without scoping, it used to have but I think it doesn't have it anymore.
Also what are your guys nicknames, if I could add you? I could use help in some stuff maybe so I'd like to add some people for the account I'm playing atm.
SSG I think has some bullet drop too, even more than M24.
My IGN is linkinxero, am on it lately trying to get it leveled up.
Much needed features on a forum
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I do agree about fixing every weapon stat sheet, smgs being faster and lighter in general than assault rifles but ARs being more stable for long range and higher damage, which doesn't mean smgs should be useless and unable to score a hit past 25m for example if you take your time to aim and don't spray and pray, just that ARs should be better fitted for this because of higher damage per shot and better "accuracy" or effective shooting range, so before nerfing or buffing default and f2p weapons, i would get the stats 100% accurate and nerf the actually broken weapons and then see how f2p or weak weapons perform afterwards but i'll talk a bit about some of the f2p, but first, we should actually discuss what the accuracy stat is.
As an example, ai_aw has a really high accuracy, at least on sheet if i remember correctly 99 or 100 last time i checked, and the damage it shows is the same, so when a new player checks the shop and finds that weapon he thinks he is going to buy a nice weapon, little does he know that none of this matters, that the accuracy concept is very vague and so is the damage.
What do we understand as accuracy on a weapon ingame? I don't know you, but to me it means how good or bad a weapon is at putting the bullet where you actually aim (bullet drop, travel time and target movement unaccounted for, since these are external variables that the player must provide and account for by himself) which paired with recoil (not as important of a stat for "bolt-action" snipers imo) should give you a nice educated guess of how the gun will behave, so now, this new player gets into a game and tries his shiny new weapon, only to find out that it's garbage, it misses more than m24 on the same maps, it needs the same if not more shots to kill people when it's not a headshot, and it's quite costly, this feels like a borderline scam, straight up. Now this kid asks himself, how can this weapon fail way more shots than the default m24 when it's stated that it has a better accuracy?
Well in my opinion there is one big "bug" with accuracy, how many of you (sniper players should've noticed it much more often and clearly) have taken your time to aim (nothing compromised your aiming such as enemy fire, explosions, your own shaky hands, mouse slipped...), that guy's head/chest totally WAS just on the right place of your scope, yet, you fire the shot and, IT misses? You didn't miss, you aimed properly, the targed didn't dodge it, nobody made you miss it, it's just like your weapon thought it would be funny to play a little prank on you for a giggle, now you missed the shot, fire the next one with the SAME EXACT conditions, but this time it actually hits, so it's not like you were out of effective shooting range, it's not like you didn't account for bullet drop, what happened? It's almost as if your own weapon just missed by itself, after witnessing this behaviour one may think that what the accuracy number represents ingame is the chance of your gun screwing you over or not (which still woulnd't make much sense because ai_aw has a higher one than m24 yet it seems to miss way more on instances where the m24 woulnd't have failed, at least from my personal experience). And not only that, but this also seems to happen with damage, you hit a guy on the chest with your m24, and usually it does about 70 damage (7 hp bars) but sometimes, just for the sake of it apparently, the same shot on the same spot just happens to do 30 damage, you hit, the guy didn't have a p2w skin with chest protection, so sometimes if you are extremely "unlucky" you NEED to score 4 m24 bodyshots to kill someone, this is an absolutely frustrating experience and it's even worse for f2p players, he manages to hide from that kid with claudia/lean+awf+inverse leaning, gets a bodyshot on him and assumes he is 3hp left, he just needs one more, goes for the next shot and gets it, turns out he didn't actually do 7hp so 2 body shots weren't enough (not sure if a "botched" 30 dmg + 70 dmg normal shot actually add up to 100 and kill or leave him at 0.1%hp and need a third shot), now after 2 shots, the enemy sniper guessed where he is shooting from, aiming his scope towards his general direction, and in the time he had to reposition and aim again, the p2w player just shoots him, random bodyshot and oneshots him, the f2p actually played better, he did better as a sniper, yet he lost, it didn't even matter. Part of this is why the sniper class is kind of in shambles (doesn't mean its underperforming or bad), just kinda badly designed atm which leads to one point you brought up, if you aren't using awf, why bother wasting any money or dinars on any other sniper rifle, awf totally overshadows every other sniper in the game, so if you are going to spend money, it would be just dumb not to go for awf, and if you aren't it would be just as dumb to go anything else than m24 (actual sniper rifles, aug doesn't fit in all this).
Mp5: I don't think it needs to be changed, either for better or worse, ignoring the most likely wrong stat sheet, but from actual usage if anything maybe a little less forgiving spraying pattern.
K2: I don't play assault much, and when I do i use other weapons because I was never a big fan of K2, if the actual damage is 37 and is not just a buggy stat sheet then bumping up the damage a bit seems okay though.
M24: overall solid weapon as a default, not as effective for bigger maps but that's okay, it shouldn't be, nothing about the gun itself should be changed imo.
The sniper class as a whole is so problematic right now that it could have its own balance thread, and I don't even play bg/uo maps, where it's even worse.
PZF: not a fan of heavy or bg either, but i think that for balance purposes, not every weapon should be 1 shot, if you wan't that "gimmick" theres enough options for it, some of them f2p and cheap like RPG just like if you want to get a shot at aircrafts you get the stinger, but maybe it could use a little help in some man-to-vehicle combat. As far as I know, stinger is also f2p, cheap and doesn't have a stupidly high lvl req, like the recently added m4 one so I don't think making it a default weapon is that good of a change, might as well remove pzf while you are at it.
Overall opinion though is, FIX the actual stat system, and then discuss balance accordingly after we get an accurate stat system, also left some problematic ones like xm8 and vector, but again, fix the stat system first then we can discuss balance.
Agree on p2w skins being so stupid, honor mention to any kind of headshot protection item and how gamebreaking they can be, even sp reduction ones seem like a strech already.
You can't say you care about the balance of the game and ignore fast reload, in my opinion is the WORST and most broken thing NX brought into the game tied with vss, I'd say on the same level of awf, but NX isn't to blame for awf.
Agree on making levels somewhat more meaningful, but without making it like a mandatory grind or the sole purpose of playing, and getting access to some tame px items, better dinar discounts or variety of weapons is a good start, not exp ups or sp ups though (XP ups should be left as a paid only option to have some kind of incentive for players that just care about level to spend some money, you want to level as fast as possible? pay up to skip some of the grind and I have mixed feelings about SP ups and everyone running around with them).
Agree to some point on the customized paid weapons, they are fine by itself and gun customization is a great area to make money from, but one of the worst things G1 did for the game was implementing the custom weapons in its current iteration, giving you the option to stack the same gun several times is just not good (hello assaults with Gina and 3 famas) stacking weapons this way also gets rids of some of their weaknesses/trade-offs/intentional flaws but I think it's just too late and too big of a move for NX or Vertigo to make. Making custom guns have the same stats than normal counterparts is fine, scopes and suppressors are fine but it could come to only buying the one with a silencer because it has one that works and that just makes it plain better than a normal one/custom without suppressor so I would suggest instead to split skins and parts into two different parts of gun customization while expanding/reworking the gunsmith so gun customization was done via gunsmith as an effective proper dinar sink AND real money option, and leaving skins as paid content only, seasonal/rotational offers are fine but there also should be an option to buy a specific skin for a long (even permanent) time like maybe you love the artic/snow theme and these are only sold during winter season, but there is an option to buy them long enough so that you may be able to use your favourite skin until the next sale or just permanently because you love it, but this idea is a bit conflictive with the current iteration of skins where they are just another slot of the same weapon to stack because the gun is op.
Making more variety of cloth skins and toons isn't bad but they shouldn't be p2w at least on pvp, 5th slot being an effective dinar sink for f2p player is a good idea too and obvious one, same goes for map creation restrictions, playerbase is just too small/dead to have that now, it's more of an outdated system from old days than anything by now, some px to be dinar sinks too is not bad, I just don't think SP ups should be one of them, and fast reload (not charge) should just be removed from the game, I think crosshairs, bandages or extra clips for example are better alternatives.
More AI only weaponry is okay, if you are a f2p user and go to AI without 5 slot and a m60/m249/m134 at least you are just crippled, maybe not only making them paid options.
The current random boxes that you get for playing but can only be opened by paying (unless certain rotational events let you buy a key sometimes) could use some work in content and system, to me it seems NX just "copied" csgo system because it works over there, and from what i can tell to some degree it worked here because so many people bought them, but i think it could use some work both as paid and f2p money sink system.
Px and "comodities" like pay to skip some grind that do not interfere with gameplay heavily being paid option only is fine too, and honestly I'm fine with flash, m14, adrenaline, sp stick, hp stick and all that being paid only options too, could be discussed wether ammo and medic boxes are fine as f2p but not the 6th slot change px, since people are usually only using ammo for the selfish purpose of getting more xp and not to actually assist your team most of the time and medic boxes are borderline broken.
Weapon identity/overlapping also needs some serious work but I think that should come as part of the weapon balance after getting a proper stat system.
Somewhat solid topic though.
1. Of course copy pasting everything from KWR is not a good idea, but most things are just perfect there, we will actually get some "copy-paste" balance patches from KWR soon, they will actually fit perfectly.
2. Yes I would definitely fix the most op weapons first, I even mentioned the 2 most broken ones in "quick nerf weapon list".
And why I show and explain about the default weapons, was simply to show how medic is better even when it comes to the default weapons (the stats are correct for mp5 and k2) and how KWR got them right, the default weapon balancing should be last on the list, like I said its not a huge deal.
And when it comes to balancing weapons, you wouldn't necessarily need to make the stats correct before it, you would need to take all the weapons in groups and balance them together and make sure the stats are correct too and the descriptions are accurate while also taking account other classes weapons. Though it wouldn't be a bad thing to do, just not necessary.
example. take all snipers, with whatever random stats they have and rethink them as a whole, so here I take pretty much all the snipers and balance them:
-This part below is also suggestion/ regarding specifically sniper balance-
-M24 - - - - Dmg 85, Speed 10, Accuracy 95, Recoil 40, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5
-SSG- - - -Dmg 90, Speed 15, Accuracy 95, Recoil 30, Weight 20, Ammo 10/3
-M21- - - - -Dmg 80, Speed 15, Accuracy 90, Recoil 30, Weight 20, Ammo 20/2
-AIAW- - - Dmg 90, Speed 10, Accuracy 100, Recoil 50, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5
-M40A1- - Dmg 90, Speed 10, Accuracy 90, Recoil 40, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5, Extra: 3xScope
-PSG1- - - Dmg 100, Speed 40, Accuracy 80, Recoil 40, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5 Extra: Semi-auto
-DSR1- - - Dmg 100, Speed 10, Accuracy 80, Recoil 40, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5 Extra: Can shoot trough multiple opponents.
-AW50F- - Dmg 100, Speed 10, Accuracy 80, Recoil 50, Weight 25, Ammo 5/5 Extra: Can shoot trough glass.
-Mosin- - - Dmg 100, Speed 10, Accuracy 80, Recoil 40, Weight 20, Ammo 5/5 Extra: Can Shoot trough glass and has only single scope.
-AS50- - - -Dmg 100, Speed 10, Accuracy 80, Recoil 90, Weight 27, Ammo 5/4 Extra: No bullet drop.
-Barrett- - - Dmg 100, Speed 10 Accuracy 100/80, Recoil 95, Weight 30, Ammo 5/3 Extra: 100% accurate and no bullet drop from prone when held still for 2 seconds and can shoot trough glass, also high damage to lightly armored vehicles.
-NTW20- - Dmg 110, Speed 5, Accuracy 75, Recoil 100, Weight 50, Ammo 3/3, Extra: High damage to vehicles, can damage tanks, 1.5x bullet drop.
Also every sniper has bullet drop until otherwise mentioned, 50m=no drop, 100m=25cm, 200m=50cm, 500m=1.25meters.
Accuracy works like when you aim, you will have round bullet spread where the bullet can fly, the closer you are the target, the less it matters and the lower your weapons accuracy the more it matters.
With sniper with 80% accuracy in 50m from target, if you shoot chest you will hit, 100m and if you aim to stomach, the spread will be big enough to hit anywhere from chest to legs and hands or miss, 200m things get little more difficult.
This is so that the snipers with less accuracy are effective enough for close range e.g PSG in CQC or with AW50F in base camping plane from 100m in BG.
So instead of camping from 300m with AW50F like you can do now, you would need to get closer to do what it does which is denies people from escaping with planes/cars etc. I have played with PSG and AW50F in Japan and Korean WR and I have found that accuracy to be perfect for those snipers.
And Snipers with 95% accuracy will hit where you point even at 100m (minus the bullet drop) and only start to have small issues at around 300m.
And 100% damage=1 shot kill to chest and head only.
Now I will explain why I made the snipers like how I listed/what is their purpose over others:
-M24, its default sniper and its good with the stats it has always had.
-SSG, same acc as M24 but more ammo and little bit faster, good balance between accuracy and ammo.
-M21, even more ammo than SSG and slight faster, but slightly less accuracy to balance it out.
-AIAW, 100% accurate, the only problem you will have with this sniper is the bullet drop.
-M40A1, slightly less accurate in order to balance out the fact that it has triple scope.
-PSG1, the only semi-auto sniper with 100% damage (1-shot), 80% is the perfect accuracy for 100% damage snipers in general like I mentioned before.
-DSR1, also 1-shot, good sniper if you like to hunt for "1 shot 2 kills shots", should also be slightly less expensive thanks to being more gimmick among the one shot snipers.
-AW50F, only 2xscope non-prone 1-shot sniper that can shoot trough glass of vehicles.
-Mosin, only sniper with only 1 scope zoom that can also 1-shot and shoot trough glass.
-AS50, only 1-shot sniper without bullet drop, so you only have to worry about the bad accuracy.
-Barrett, the only 1-shot and shoot trough glass sniper that can have 100% accuracy, prone only to balance this like it already has, also 80% accuracy when you don't wait 2 secs instead of the random spread it has now if you don't wait.
-NTW20, very little ammo, super slow, very high damage to vehicles, only sniper that can damage big tanks, mostly good against vehicles because of the damage and because with the accuracy you can't hit infantry from big distance, 110 damage means you will one shot infantry if you hit chest and 2 shot anywhere else. (Korean WR balanced this sniper but its underpowered now lol, sometimes you get 3/4-shot kills, I have to test the tank damage though)
So this is a proper way of balancing things, because now every weapon in that category has some usefulness, currently we have only 1 or maybe 2 useful snipers, that's ridiculous.
You can balance groups of weapons like this and after some testing see if its really perfect or not, for example. some of the non-1-shot snipers damages could be tuned, I just threw the damages there, though the damage on non-1-shot snipers shouldn't matter much because they are still 1-shot to head. (non-1-shot means less than 100% damage, therefore not being able to 1-shot to chest)
I wanted to do something in my original post but my brain didn't work and I forgot lots of things that I wanted to say and explain, so in my answer to you I got idea so I wrote it now haha, so this is my big answer regarding everything you said about snipers.
-This part above is also suggestion/ regarding specifically sniper balance-
3. The point about stinger was that when people try out BG, they don't have anything to find against air vehicles, but actually they balanced out some AA weapons in bases in BG so I think its actually fine haha, though stinger (or any other AA-launcher like strela) as an alternate heavy trooper default weapon wouldn't hurt.
4. You don't think SP UPS should be one of the free items? That's ridiculous, not only SP UPS make the amount of being able to run/roll and jump just perfect, but also having SP UPS and not having them is a HUGE difference in CQC and in BG pretty big difference too. If you don't have them and your opponent does, he can just roll to cover when you rush and then rush you instead because you don't have anymore SP, this extra SP can be very crusial, especially now with all the characters its just even worse. Even if Papaya refuses to make the full F2P system, SP UPS are something they should definitely put for dinar as well.
And you mentioned Mines, I totally forgot them, I need to update my post, mines are visible for both teams in Korean WR, but in our version only our players see them, this is too op and doesn't make sense, especially since mines give so much points too. Also they promote camping which is not good for any fps-game.
Thanks for your answer.
Also for everyone, please let me know what do you think about this suggestion, also hit like if you agree with it!
I think I will do this for all weapons and classes cause it was pretty fun.
Yes maybe in real life you can see them but they're hidden most the time (camouflaged)
I can't see Papaya making WarRock a 100% Pure F2P Game..
They won't get nothing back from hosting the game.. - There just needs to be more 'dinar only' items available to players.
Mike
There would still be effective ways to use them such as the one in Byway that I mentioned and also things like covering bomb with them so you know when they are defusing if they step in your mine etc.
Way more fair and fun this way.
And you can't see them making it 100% pure F2P? Well they asked how they could make it win-win for both players and the game in Dekaron forums, so sure they are ready to think about it for WR too and also there is way to do it and make enough money for the game unlike you said.
If the game has well balanced weapons, that means more fun and balance gameplay, which means more players, which means more money, because people would still buy a lot as they don't want to grind too much and because there are lots of weapons and items to be bought, also the skins and EXP UPS etc. Clan stuff and improved premium, zombie items, did you even read the part about F2P model talk?
Why do you think they would get nothing back from hosting a game? That's just ridiculous blind assumption without any proper though and explanation. Please think about it more and explain yourself.
If they ever balance the weapons and fix the lag I swear I'll spend so much on this game again, I spent quite a lot during G1 and a little during Nexon but because of pay2win and lag problems at Nexon, I stopped playing and paying just like so many other players.
Firstly, I could list places on everymap where people place mines and 90% of the time i'd be correct, this game is too easy to read, people havent got imagination when it comes to mines. Its obvious they're gonna be in a doorway.
WarRock won't be pure F2P. It'll never happen, no other version of WarRock is pure F2P.
You're going on about pure F2P.. That'll mean no money spent on premium, guns, costumes etc..
Pure F2P = Everything is accessable and you don't have to pay for one thing.
I've gave it a thought a really good thought over the past 4years to be honest with you. I know way's of fixing this game, simple ways. I know ways of bring back old players and new players into the WarRock community, but, its not worth explaining yet until everything is in place and we see what Papaya Play have up there sleeve.
Mike
LOL you didn't even read my second post in this thread regarding the 100% F2P Model. You should at least have read it if you are going to disagree with it, though if you read it and missed it, I don't blame you for missing it out as I only mention it once, I will need to update the post and try to make the points more clear.
But yeah here let me summarise what I said in that post:
Pure Free2Play Model means that nothing in the game that is for real money only should give an advantage over F2P player, so every weapon and almost every item should be purchasable with Dinar.
(and also everything can be bought with real money too, i mentioned it later)
So this means everything can be bought with dinar except items like: Exp/Dinar ups, Clan items (expansion, logo etc), Ham radio, Nick change, KD ratio reset, Zombie only items, Tank camo/Top gun. So people will need to pay real money for those items.
Then I mentioned some things that are fine after some tweaking such as Characters (only cosmetic), also Premium but with some tweaks and I also mentioned additional things that could be added for real money only.
And in the Level up unlock system part I mentioned about how almost everything can be unlocked to be purchasable with dinar after certain level ups but you could also buy them before that level with real money, therefore getting you ready for the battle faster but not giving an advantage because anybody could buy it after some playing.
So EVERYTHING in game could be bought with real money.
So how is that not paying a thing for anything? You can literally buy anything with cash, its just that you could buy most things with dinar too, at least after the level up unlock.
This Level up unlock system together with absolute F2P supports and encourages people to use money but if they absolutely don't want to, they don't have to and they are still not at a disadvantage, this would hugely benefit the game.
Can you see it now?
I 100% understand where you are coming from now, and I completely agree, sorry for the mis-understanding.
Mike
You allow the game to be played without paying money. However, for people that want to shortcut and not do the grind to reach level restrictions and/or make enough dinar, they can buy what they want with cash.
We know people in this game will buy skinned weapons even if they are no different from regular weapons (look at all the country weapons) because they enjoy showing off a flashy weapon.
We know people in this game will buy exp up (and dinar up) items because they love being a high level and making themselves think they are better than they are.
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Here's a new idea. If we want to keep gambling in the game, I would be alright with the idea of a slightly raised price (10% more?) for the chance (1/1000 or rarer, but unknown to the player) of getting a permanent weapon. Not in the ways that Nexon did it with mystery boxes where you could get a dud weapon 8 times out of 10, a decent weapon 1 time out of 10, and a good weapon 1 time out of 10 but rarely ever get the permanent. No, if you have a Famas for $4, then just charge $4.40 for the chance of getting a permanent Famas. Players who like the weapon may turn to trying to buy with cash instead of dinar on the offchance they get it permanently. They won't see the extra 40 cents a month as a problem to them, but it can really translate to an extra $4.40 in sales for Papaya.
Much needed features on a forum
Would be nice to see what Papaya charge when its all up and running.
I like buying funky weapons not to 'show off' but just because they look nice.
Mike
Best Lie 2017. They didnt even sold 20.
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If you don't understand this you can educate yourself by having a look at these videos explaining these problems:
Also anyone else who is interested in why pay2win model is bad should watch these videos.
I found these from Dekaron forums from a topic where a GM started discussion about how to make the free2play model win win for both the player and the company.
He had shared these videos with hes team and he believed it was some of these videos that helped to reform that games in-game currency for example.
Thread can be found here: http://forum.papayaplay.com/index.php?p=/discussion/354496/free2play-open-topic-dicussions/p1
They had made some changes because of the discussion in that thread even, so I believe they are willing to try same for WR, maybe even from the beginning? We will see.
Also that MK1S DE will be nerfed 100% sure, so you better prepare to play like a man again.
Edit:
Found out some crazy promising information from their another new title:
With the conclusion of OGPlanet’s service of La Tale on June 28, 2017, the game will be moving and relaunching through Papaya Play. Our team is using the relaunch as an opportunity to rebalance character classes, implement significant game system improvements, and overhaul the monetization model to enhance the overall La Tale experience.
So basically they have been balancing out their other titles, so at least now I feel very confident that they will be doing the same for warrock too, its only a matter of time.
I play across all the proper BG maps yet find so many players stuck on one map, one side team stacking refusing to play any other map or even change side... How sad and this must get so boring.
Adding or subtracting 2-5 stats on a weapon is not going to improve anything. And from the map updates ive seen the team stacking and spawn point camping is going to become a lot worse.